READ THIS!!! Getting screwed by Game Warden!

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Rusty C.

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:angry:My wife and I were at the lake yesterday. I was fishing in the front of course, and my wife laying in the back of the boat sun bathing. She doesn't fish but likes to lay out. I don't even have the back seat and post in so she has plenty of room to lay out.



At about 11:30, the game warden comes up. I have never been stopped before so all of this is new to me. He comes up in his boat and nearly crashes into us and just says "coming aboard!" He immediately asks to see my fishing license, looks in my livewell, checks to see if I have a fire extinguisher, paddle, noise maker, etc. He then looks at my wife and tells her he will have to see her fishing license too.



We thought he was kidding at first, but then he became irratated and we could tell he wasn't kidding. We told him she wasn't fishing, just laying out catching some sun, obviously since she was laying down in a bikini when he pulled up. He asked me "how come the four poles then?" I told him I use all four poles. I explained that I use each one for different uses.

He shook his head and smiled while he was writing my wife a ticket.



Can they do this to us? Do you have to have a fishing license even if you aren't fishing? This seems like horse sh**!



I could see where it would be questionable if a couple of my rods were laying down in the back of the boat where she was laying, but the nearest rod in reach of her was at least six feet away!



Can I fight this?
 
I have heard of this in Pa. also. It has never happed to my self and my wife as she also goes with me to get some sun. You might want to call the main office for your game warden to see if that is in fact the law. I would think that a court of law would up hold your side as he never saw her fishing but they also get funny when some one is taking on a law officer. If you got a ticket it no dout is law but if it is not the warden should be removed from the force.
 
I may be mistaken... unless he saw her with a FISHING rod in her hands... he's outta line!!!!
 
Sounds like you got a Warden that follows the law to the letter. Easier to do that way, doesn't have to think so much. A lot depends on the Warden.



 
You can go to court and settle It..They expect you to just pay the fine and forget about It I have had the same thing before..Just show up at court and tell your story and you should also file a complaint with the state atty general to cover your ass..You knw how It Is they like to take there word for It over yours...Also talk to your local Sheriff and explain It to him..The tickets are costly..........JR
 
There is no way I would pay a dime on that one. I would have hated to been in that situation. I may have left in cuffs or in a bigger mess.
 
Rusty, page 5 of the Georgia 2005-2006 Fishing Season Regulations says, "Anglers 16 years and older must have a current Georgia fishing license while fishing..."



Clearly, that definition did not apply to your wife, based on what you described.



Did your wife have a poll in her hand at any time during the outing?



It's a sad abuse of state authority. The guy comes over, probably to get a closer look at your wife in her bikini, and when everything is in order (your license, your boat status), he rubs salt in the wound by inventing a bogus charge. Here are some options:



1) Call the DNR office where that warden works and ask to speak to the supervisor/commander. Describe what happened and see what kind of reaction you get. If you have an honest commander and you tell the story calmly, the commander may investigate the matter by talking to the game warden. If the game warden fesses up (unlikely), the commander may make the issue "go away."



2) Most officers hate to go to court. Go to court along with your wife. The warden may not show up, in which case, the judge will probably dismiss the ticket and the fine. If the warden shows up, tell your story earnestly, calmly, with reserved emotion, and have your wife do the same. Since you are dealing with a warden who has already proven dishonest, don't expect the truth.



The judge will take into account both you and your wife telling the same story, as well as the fact that you made the effort for both of you to get to court. If you are missing work because of the court date, make sure that the judge knows this as well, to further underscore how outraged you are at being abused.



3) Or, just pay the ticket and move on. Trying to correct injustice from a corrupt bureacracy is an excercise in frustration and will test your sanity. Sometime it is easier and cheaper to pay and save your fight for the bigger issues.



The one time I got ticket by a ranger, he found two violations and only wrote me up on one. He was a gentlemen throughout, and ended the process by telling me he appreciated my polite cooperation because it made his job easier (he was a South Carolina warden working the shared waters of Lake Hartwell). As with all walks of life, there are good game wardens, and bad ones.
 
P.S. If you fish that lake regularly, buy your wife a fishing license. If the local practice is to ticket non-anglers in a fishing boat, you are better off spending the $9/year for the license to be immune from such idiocy.
 
Todd, you have to pick and choose your fights. Corrupt gov't is a fact of life. $9 is a cheap solution to this particular problem. The fine is probably $25 to $50, maybe more.
 
I was really pissed at the time and the game warden knew it. I tried to reserve my emotions as much as I could. I really wanted to beat the sh** out of him but I knew that wouldn't be the thing to do, not to mention the jail time I would get for sure.



kb5601, she never even touched one fishing rod the entire time. I already had them in the rod locker of the boat. She never even touched my tackle box, dip net, pliers, nothing!



Rich, like you said, I thought he might have come over to check out my wife. But, I did see him check two other boats before me and at least one more when we were leaving. He did stare at my wife, but not as bad as other fisherman. The guy that was with him who actually was the driver of the boat, never took his eyes off of her. It made her a little uncomfortable. I am not sure if the boat driver was a game warden too or not. That really doesn't bother me because you kinda ask for it. If you have a wife who is in great shape and has a great body, don't be pissed at other men for looking when you take her to the lake and lays out in a bikini. That part I understand. Now, if he came over to my boat and no one elses, then we have a problem.



I may just have to go to jail. I refuse to pay this ticket. I picked up the most recent fishing and hunting regulations, and I can't find anything that reads where an occupant of the boat must have a license. Yes, I could just buy my wife a fishing license to avoid this crap in the future, but why should I? It's not right. Just for the principle of this thing, I am going to fight this tooth and nail.



I can't read his hand writing to figure out his name, but his badge number is on the ticket. I am going to call the main office and find out his name. As mad as I am right now, I thought about getting his name and looking up his phone number and calling him at all times of the night. Or better yet, go and buy some of those doo doo balls they sell in platic bags called catfish stink bait and open several bags and dump it inside his car when he leaves the windows cracked.
 
in Mo. they have to see you with rod in hand they can check your livewels buy iy is not there job to check saftey equipment that is water patrol and Coast Guards job



JD
 
In Louisiana *fishing* is defined as the act of attempting to take fish by means of hook and line or any other means...Which means ya gotta TRY to catch a fish!!

We had a warden here a few years back that wrote a woman in a bikini (who was fishing) a ticter for not having a license in her possesion...( it was in her hubby's wallet who was also in the boat). The District Judge laughed and promptly threw it out of his court and told the warden to *never bring another b$# s&*t charge like that into his court again or he would be the one paying the fine. Good thing in Louisiana the District Criminal Court handles Wildlife fines.



RW
 
If I were you I would fill out a sexual harrassment charge against him. I guess he figured your wife could pick up the fishing gear and start fishing whenever she wanted. Using that logic he is a man with the proper equipment and he could have started using it whenever he wanted.



Bill
 
Rusty, go talk to an attorney. It sounds to me like he and his partner just wanted a better look at your wife. Often, law enforcement officers will write a hard copy ticket in an effort to "document" questionable behavior. It is far fetched, but it is possble that this guy is an abuser of his authority and now that he has your address, could take it further. I personally would not let it slide if in fact you are within the law. Our law restricts an angler to 3 lines in the water at any given time, with no restrictions on number of poles. A warden tried to railroad me once because I had 5 rods with me. After several minutes of discussion, he relented and warned me about using more than 3 at once.
 
Spend $200 on an attorney to beat a $100 fine? :unsure:



Don, are you an attorney? I ask because that sounds like an attorney's solution to this problem. :D
 
in virginia it not enough to give you a ticket unless you are holding the rod, if i am catfishing and have the rod in a holder, technically i am not fishing until i pick up the rod.

i would fight this one.

mike
 
That guy is an A$$ wipe and don't know the law! Make sure you get a good lawyer and take your wife as a witness and put the screws to em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now this is the kinda' thing that really gets my goat...Giving ANYONE authority without education!:angry:
 
Rich, I am an industrial mechanic. I suggest that he talk to a lawyer to make sure that he is legit. Conservation law can be complex and hard to interpret. For example; our law states that it is illegal to possess certain equipment (i.e. spears, gigs, snag hooks) while on some trout streams. Simply having a snag hook in your tackle box can draw a ticket here. It is possible that his state law has language that would make the ticket appropriate. To me its not just the money for the fine, but more about principal. If the warden in question is an abuser of his authority, how far will he go if he is not checked. A game warden actually has more opportunity to abuse, because he doesn't need probable cause to approach people. Simply being on a boat in the water is his justification to board your craft, search your property and discover your name and address. A cop on the street needs cause to stop your vehicle or to run a check on your license plate. Can you imagine: you get pulled over and your vehicle is searched just because you are there. It is becoming more common for police to run license plate checks at "random", and this should not be tolerated. I do get a little worked up about this type of thing, because I am a bit of a civil rights kind of guy. I have been on both sides of the coin (worked in law enforcement, and had my civil rights trampled on) and I have little tolerance for sloppy police work or abuse of authority.
 
Bottom line....I could have 50 rods on the boat and as long as my wife wasn't fishing and he didn't see it....he's toast and needs to be made an example out of.

 
Rich,

When I was about ten I saw my dad spent about $400 to beat a $90 speeding ticket.

It wasn't a case of him speeding and just wanting to beat the ticket,he was going the limit and the cop was in the wrong.So he got a lawyer to fight it,and the judge threw out the ticket.



I pretty much thought he was an idiot at the time when he did it..but once I had gotten older, I realized why he did.

And that lesson in standing up for your principles has stuck with me.



Steve
 
Rusty - I'm with everyone else - fight the ticket. But first i'd agree to call his boss/head of DRN up there and question the officer and see if THAT makes it go away AND puts a mark on his record. Also file a formal complaint with the DNR and your state legislators.



Trep
 
Don, my comment was in gest. I understand the value of a good attorney in many legal situations, but I think Rusty can handle this one himself if he keeps a cool head.



In this case, the gov't organization that enforces the law publishes a guide that tells people what the law is and how to comply with it. The language in that book clearly supports Rusty's position. Any reasonable judge, as long as he believes Rusty and his wife, will recognize that.



Had Rusty been substantially fined, or detained, I could see going the lawyer route. But this case doesn't warrant it. The fine is minor, there is no permanent record or impact on Rusty's wife's status for driving, boating, or fishing.



A call to the DNR office, followed by showing up for the court date will win the day.

 
Agree Mike ...too much of this stuff going on and nobody paying the piper.

Stck it too em!

Buddy of mine just won an illegal search and siezure case and he not only won and one of the cops was demoted...he was awarded 50K!

Now THAT's worthwhile considering he only spent 3K on a good lawyer:p
 
Rusty:



Lots of good suggestions here. One way to approach this is to do what I call the "escalating solutions." You start with smaller, less expensive approaches and build up if you don't succeed in getting the relief you want. Each step is correspondingly more resource intensive and at some point, you may need to consult with experts (i.e., an attorney). Given your situation, you might try the following (in order):



1. Write down what happened. Its amazing that a lot of people stick with memory of incidents - but memory has a way of changing or omitting details, especially as time goes on. So write down exactly what happened including all the details you can recall. What you wrote above is a great start. Then have your wife write down separate what she recalls from her perspective. Both of you get as detailed as possible with dates, times, locations, etc. Heck, its also important to write down what each of you was wearing. No detail is too small. What you want to do is start to build a written file of the situation.



2. After you have all the documentations, call the DNR local office where the warden is based and ask to speak to the warden's supervisor. Explain your situation using the documented details of the incident as an outline to the conversation. Try not to speculate (i.e., that rat b@stard just wanted to check out my wife in her bikini), because you never know - the supervisor and warden may be best buddies. After explaining the situation, ask if there is anything that can be done because clearly, your wife was not fishing. BE POLITE and respectful and see what happens. If you run up against resistance or the supervisor is not helpful, then let him know (politely) that you have no choice but to raise the issue further up the chain. Then, WRITE DOWN everything about the conversation. I'd suggest recording, but in some states, you need both parties' permission in order to electronically record a conversation. Don't get yourself in trouble that way. Just write the date and time of call, who you spoke with and a description of the conversation. Then go onto the next step.



3. Call the DNR's main office and ask for the Commissioner's office. Let the clerk answering the phone know that you have a serious issue with a field office and need to report this. Often times, you can get a dispute resolution office or some other person that can look into this. Don't be afraid to let them know you want to file a formal complaint. Again, write down the name of everyone you speak with, date and time of call.



4. In the meantime, the clock is ticking on the ticket. Read the back of the ticket to make sure you know how to contest the ticket. REQUEST A COURT DATE. Even if you never use it or get satisfaction earlier in the process, keep the door open.



5. Call a few lawyers. Good ones will not charge for the first consultation call. You may get a lot of sales pitches for hiring - afterall, lawyers sell their time, but what you want is an attorney's impression of your case. If its a good one, you'll get a sales pitch for how you need to hire that lawyer or this one. If its not, most good lawyers will tell you its not worth fighting. Call a few because you're bound to get a number of them that are only trying to sell their time.



6. Prepare your case. Have your file of documents ready. Go take pictures of the how your boat was set up with the rods in front and wife in back (preferably NOT in the bikini this time!). Get pictures of the spot you were in. Make a copy of your fishing license and keep it in the file. Make a copy of the ticket. In sum, you want everything you are going to say to be backed up with documents and pictures. Draw up a list of questions for the warden. Make sure to cover every detail. You should start out with background and work up. Leading questions (i.e., those with only a "yes" or "no" answer) are best. Try
 
But also remember that the ticket was written to the wife not Rusty, so the questions will be from her, unless Rusty will represent his wife? Would that be allowed. In any event with the ticket written to Rusty's wife, she would have an even better ability to illustrate that she was not fishing, she did not have any fishing equipment on her possesion, also if Rusty wanted to push the issue of harrasment, I would think his wife's representation of herself being harrassed would prove to be a stronger case, just my IMHO.



Good luck with the issue, I have many times had my wife on the back of the boat while I was fishing on the front deck with multiple poles.



CJL
 
Good point CJL - Rusty, take what I said and switch it for your wife. I forgot that she was the one that got ticketed, since you had authored the original post. My apologies to you and the wife for the error.



JC
 
I have to say thank you everyone who responded. I have cooled down since my last response. I read and thought about all of your responses.



Jim C, I did pretty much what you said and others said to do. I called the main office and told them I needed to speak with the supervisor or whoever was the top person in charge of the game wardens. The lady who answered the phone said he was "unavailable at this time" and wanted to know who I was and if there was someone else I could talk to. I told her I wanted to file a formal complaint, get the game warden's name, date of hire, and anything else in his personnel file that I was legally allowed to have. Then I told her, "by the way, I am recording this phone call for legal reasons." She asked me if she could take my name and number and call me back in a few mintues.



Within just a couple of minutes, the head honcho who supposedly wasn't available was available. I told him the nature of the call along with the whole story and details.

The conversation ended with he admitted that particular warden has had "a couple of complaints" and that they have been "working with him to get him up to par." He instructed me to fax him my wife's citation. He called back to confirm that he received the fax and said the citation has been dropped and that we wouldn't have to pay the fine or show up for the court date.



What I am kind of upset about is that he never admitted the warden was wrong or went overboard, etc. How about "I appologize for this inconveinence" or a simple "I'm sorry"?

Anyway, I told him I would need written documentation that the citation was indeed dropped. The last thing I need is to forget about this thing and then I find out it never was taken care of and then be in deeper trouble.



Bottom line. Chalk another one up for the good guys!:)



Thank you all again for the advice!



 
GREAT News Rusty!! Sounds like the boss did at least 80% the right way, he might not want to admit the error of his employee for fear of a lawsuit (remember i'm a manager for a major corporation, so i've got some experience). He did what was right, hopefuly will send you the confirmation and back to fishing you go!!
 
I would still file a formal complaint, especially after you get the written confirmation that the citation was dropped. This guy needs a reprimand so maybe he will think before doing this type of thing to someone else. I would also go on-line and look up your state DNR or whatever they call it there. I would then send s letter to the real head honcho outlining everything that went on including the statement that he has had "a couple of complaints" and that they have been "working with him to get him up to par." I would also ask where my apology was?

Way to go.



Bill
 
If all this strategy works we should go after reality shows next...
 
Now it's time for the old joke.

Recall the citation, then have your wife accuse him of rape.

The warden would say," I never touched you or even threatened to rape you!"

Your wife says, "Ah, but you have the equipment handy."



You might have to fill in some blanks here, but you'll get the idea.



I was fishing in Vermont a couple af years ago when I heard a muffled sneeze!

It was a game warden sitting in the brush with full camo's watching for violations.

HIdden pretty good too, I never knew he was there.

Great job Rusty.
 
Tols this before but.... Some years ago I saw a man in a Jon Boat waving to me while I was fishing. I stopped and started the big motor and went over to him. Well, he wasn't in trouble, he was a game warden. He checked everything he could possibly could and then took my drivers license and went to his car by the boat ramp. I guess he radioed in to check on something else. He was gone about a 1/2 hour. He came back, gave me my license back and I left that area and went back up lake to fish. He was nasty, rude and a P.I.T.A. About three hours later I was ready to leave and heading back to the ramp this same jerk is waving at me again. I slowed down enough to see what he wanted and he hollered that his motor wouldn't start and he left his oars in his truck. The little devils horns came out of the top of my head and I told him to have a nice day and kept right on going. And NO, I don;t feel bad about it at all. He did everything he could do to try and ruin my day. Pay back is he!! isn't it.:)



Bill
 
<<<<Pay back is he!! isn't it.>>>>



Way to go Bill:D



http://www.mdalockup.org/bailpage.aspx?j=42961
 
Congrats Rusty!! Glad it worked out. Smart to get written confirmation of the ticket being dropped as well. I know you wanted the apology, but I think you got as much as you could out of the supervisor. That he admitted there were complaints about the warden was probably as far as he could go - personnel matters being very sticky and a veritable legal land mine for management. Again, he got to the core issue of dropping the citation against your wife.



I agree that a formal complaint filed against the warden (once the written confirmation of citation nullification is received) is another good idea. Get a record going against this guy. He's done wrong by your wife. Who knows how many others he's screwed over - at least a dozen if there are "a few" complaints about him. No telling when your paths might cross again and you definitely want a leg up on this bozo.



Congrats again!



JC
 
Interesting comments and situation.



When I took my son and neice to the lake this spring (while they were in town), I removed all of my rod's/tackle from the boat before going, for this same reason.



Try this one.



'I'm sorry officer, but that open can of beer in the back seat is not mine. I wasn't drinking from it. You didn't see me actually drink from it, did you?'



If you have poles/equipment in a boat, especially one that is made for fishing, and have people on the boat, you had better have fishing licenses for them.



Another interesting take on 'rules'.



Lake Wylie is on the NC/SC border. In NC, the length limit is 14". In SC, it's 12". On the Catawba chain (Catawba river has 4-5 lakes on it in NC), the following is legal:



2 fish (bass) anysize.

All others up to 5 must be 14".



I launch and catch 3 12" fish in SC. I get stopped in NC. What's the rule/law?



I get a ticket for having a 'short fish', even though it was caught legally in SC.



Obviously, you 'may' be able to get out of the ticket, but reasonable doubt would probably be on the Warden's side of the argument.



Fishing boat. Multiple rods. Multiple people. Conclusion: Reasonable to expect that all persons were/are going to be fishing at some point in time. They should all have a license.



Tex
 
Tex said:
Fishing boat. Multiple rods. Multiple people. Conclusion: Reasonable to expect that all persons were/are going to be fishing at some point in time. They should all have a license.
Click to expand...



Tex, how about this one: Presumption of innocence as intended in our system of laws.



Reasonableness means that a women obviously engaged in getting a suntan while her husband fishes, is there for suntanning, not fishing. To presume she is an angler for the purpose of issuing a citiation, whether she is on a raft, a fishing boat, or the Queen Mary 2, is arbitrary and abusive of the women's liberty.



Our gov't exists to protect our liberties, not remove them. A point that is often lost.
 
I launch and catch 3 12" fish in SC. I get stopped in NC. What's the rule/law?



I get a ticket for having a 'short fish', even though it was caught legally in SC.
Click to expand...



you're in NC water, and there is no way to 'prove' where you caught the fish. Be glad you're not cited for transporting fish illegaly! :)D)



In Ky, we have several situations like this... even moreso in places like Dale Hollow where reciprocal liscenses/laws are in affect... when in doubt, use the "more restrictive" rules to be safe. (In this case, since you knew you'd be traveling into NC water, you should've followed NC rules).



As for the fishing license, it cannot simply be stated that everyone in a given boat "will" be fishing... I think the rule should be more clear that if you are CAUGHT fishing without a liscense...



And, what Rich Stern said... he rocks!
 
As always, this type of discussion prompts different views.



Actually, on the GA DNR site, fishing is defined as:

Fishing - catching, capturing, taking, or killing fish, mussels and all seafood and includes all lesser acts such as attempting to catch, capture, or kill by any device or method and directly assisting any person in catching or attempting to catch fish or seafood.
Click to expand...



We are now faced with defining:



and directly assisting any person in catching or attempting to catch fish or seafood.
Click to expand...



If you helped launch or trailer the boat, handled the net, handed the angler anything that they asked for or needed, handled netting a fish, then you would likely meet the above definition.



Regardless, it is my experience that most all DNR officers do the math on this the same way. If you are in a boat where fishing equipement is out and fishing is happening, then you probably are 'fishing'.



And yes, if you go to 'court' on this (which will generally be handled by a Justice of the Peace), you may be able to get out of it. As others have said, including Rich, just by the license and be safe. I buy an in state SC ($10.00) and an out of state NC ($30.00) for my wife each year. Mostly, just to be safe.



Tex
 
Rigth... so to be in violation, you have to be CAUGHT doing said things...



I seriously doubt that even the most hardcore DNR officers will cite "no fishing license" for launching the boat... using the net? Sure... that's directly related to the act of fishing.



This Officer was clearly in the wrong.



Even if the wife USUALLY fished, in this instance she was not ACTIVELY fishing. (Of course, if she usually fished, then she would have a license.)



This is like saying the cop can give me a speeding ticket becuase I "CAN" speed, and probably have at some point in the past.



Primary point here is that you cannot (should not) cite someone for not having a license for an activity that they have no intention of pursuing, or atleast was not pursuing at the time of the citation.



And, in court... the defense get's the benefit of the doubt, not the prosecution.
 
I'm guessing that most of the time, when somone see's a warden coming (and does not have a license), they can simply drop the poles and say they were not fishing . . . . Will that work?



When you start looking at how the law is applied to other things, it begs to ask the question, when is the same test not applied to something as straight forward as fishing?



Officer, I ddin't actually rob the grocery store. I was just along for the ride.



I'm not smoking any of that stuff. I'm just in the car.



That cocaine in the glove compartment belongs to a friend. I saw him put it in there.
Click to expand...





I'm certainly not saying that in this particular case, the DNR officer was correct. It would probably have been a better idea for him to write a warning ticket, and explain it to both occupants. Also, it is quite likely that he has been told that if there is fishing going on in the boat, that they are to check everyone for a fishing license - and ticket those that don't have one.



Tex

 
Tex, common sense has to come in somewhere and that's where the Officer's training should come in. I would think that if all of the rods are in the front of the boat, and my wife is in the back wearing a bikini with a book in her hand, it would ne patently obvious to any normal human being that she was not fishing. Now, If you are in the back of my boat and there are a cpouple of rods in the back and you are sitting on the pedestal seat, then yes you should get and probably will get a ticket.

There is a small crise ship that leaves Ann polis for trips down the Bay. The last time I was on it I noticed he had a couple of ros and reels on board. I asked why and he said when he was bored he would throw out a line and troll a little while under way. Now, using your logic, everyone on board should get a ticket because they are on his boat and could at any time pick up one of the other rods and start fishing.. NOT



Bill
 
Tex...



All three of your examples are what would be termed "aiding and abbetting" a known Criminal Act.



Fishing is not a criminal act, it is a hobby that requires a liscense (which is more of a tax to support the infrastructure as opposed to a Drivers license that ensures a certain level of capability).



So, while I get the point your attempting to make, your examples are oranges to my apples.



You simply should not have to buy a liscense for an activity you have no interest in to avoid a ticket while you are with other people doing said activity.



If you partake, with out the license, then you are fair game.



Proximity of rods, actions of the users on approach, all should be taken into consideration.



Common Sense should prevail.



Buying a license, while cheap insurance against this situation, does not HELP... it actually can hurt in the long run.
 
I would agree that common sense should prevail. With absolutely no offense meant in this situation to Rusty or his wife, common sense would tell you that if you are on a fishing boat that is actively fishing, and you think that you might be stopped by a DNR officer, you should have a license. If nothing else, it keeps you from getting a ticket.



Put yourself in the DNR officers position. If they made 'judgements' that benefitted the individual most of the time, they would likely get all kinds of flack from their supervisors and senior officers. Since they probably need to keep notes on everything they do, imagine the situation:



Stopped boat X (registration number) on 8/14/05 at 12:01PM. Fishing was observed on board the boat. When stopped, multiple rods/reels/baits were observed. Checked safety equipment - all okay. Checked licenses. One had a license, the other did not. No ticket given. Ofc. Fred Jones.



I would agree, my comparision above probably is apples and oranges. I'll give you that. It's an extreme comparison.



Let's try this one.



Hunting season. I come upon 2 people in woods sitting around having coffee. There are 3 weapons attached to one of the two ATV units parked nearby. Licenses are asked for. One has the proper license, the other does not.



Officer: Why don't you have a hunting license?



Answer: I'm just out enjoying the woods and riding the ATV. I'm not hunting.



Does he get a ticket for hunting without a license, or not?



It's a difficult thing to ask anyone to objectively look at the situation from the other perspective. It's even harder to do.



Tex
 
Who are the guns licensed to?



If the person is not seen actively hunting, he doesnt need the license. If he does not intend to hunt, he does not need a license.



Now, in this situation, aiding in the hunt might come into more play.



In Ky, we need seperate Trout Stamps to keep trout.



I've never bought one.



I've caught one in my life, by accident, that was released.



If I get caught with trout in my livewell, i expect a ticket if I do not have a trout stamp.



If I catch a trout (unintentionally, and not in a "trout stream"), and i release it, I should not get a ticket.



If I am fishing in a known "trout stream", and I do not have a trout stamp, even if I am not actively fishing for trout, I expect a ticket.



If I am in an "artificail bait only" area, and have nite crawlers in my cooler, still sealed, and have no intention of fishing with them, in that area, I expect a ticket.



No grey areas.



Follow the rule of law, posted guidelines, and err to the maximum creel/minumim length that is the most restrictive if on a reciprocal body of water, and you'll be fine.



In order to be ticketed, you must be OBSERVED partaking in the particular action you are not licensed to do... merely being in the area where the activity taking place is not enough to warrant a citation.
 
Sim,



I agree with you on this 100%, I understand your points Tex but it this really needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis. If the DNR offices cannot comprehend each situation, he/she should really not be in that level of authority.



Take this example: Sunday I go fishing with both of my boys and Father who is a Senior Citizen. None of them are fishing just observing and hanging out on the boat with me, (this actually happens). So I get into some really good Smallmouth fishing and decide that I'm keeping them to eat, (that would really never happen) anyway, let's do the math. Both my boys are allowed 5 each, and so is my dad, none of them legally need a lic to fish.



I have in my livewell that I intend to keep, 20 12" Smallmouth bass. Is that legal? Or should the DNR officer review the situation and act accordingly and ticket me, knowing that I caught all the fish. Technically it is legal, especially if he did not witness the catching part, but he/she should be able to discover the underlying true situation.



Just another way of looking at the original situation, the officer needs to correctly apply the law, which in this case he did not.



CJL
 
This is making me think a bit, OUCH that hurts!!! LOL



But, and again I think we ALL agree in Rusty's case as described no license for his wife is necessary at all.



But... After reading Tex's post from the GA Fishing Regs
eirectly assisting any person in catching or attempting to catch fish
Click to expand...



I come to this scenario I actualy have, but luckily have NOT had a DNR officer see, which until I read the above I saw NOTHING Wrong with.



Beka, Noah, Eli and I go out for a day on the lake. She's reading a book on the back deck, the boys are testing lures in the front live well (they LOVE to see which float, sink and my hypothesiseseses based on the previous lures, they love Science!!!). Anyway, i'm chunking a crankbait down the bank and BAM hook a fish (yes Virginia it DOES happen to Trep every once in a while :lol:) And it feels like a nice fish, I say "someone get the net!" and Beka grabs it and helps me net the fish. She was NOT fishing, no rod or anything BUT... She did Assist me in landing the fish....hmmmmmm
 
Chris - I agree technicaly and as I said, until Tex posted it and I pulled my copy out of the boat and read it, I was Ignorant but STILL illegal!! Now, it would definetly depend on the mood of the DNR officer if he wanted to punish us on a fun day with everything else in line on the boat.
 
Trep,



Actually the more I think of it, your example would be assisting in catching the fish and really not comparable to the original issue IMHO, but like you said what DNR officer would actually ticket somebody for that?



 
Exactly, so I think i'll go the easy route and not even tell her and just yearly on-line buy the $9 license for her and put it in the boat!!! LOL
 
OK for you, but NJ lic are double that price, :lol:



In any event my wife gets a lic. every year in a never-ending quest to beat "Charlie Moore" (actually me), on the lake. :cool:



I always keep her out of casting range if she starts catching more than me;)



Oh Trep, she would actually still get a ticket, unless she is wearing the lic, she could still get another ticket.
 
"wearing the lic" What is that?? Do you actualy have to have it visable on you??? LOL



Here in GA you just have to be able to produce when asked. I keep a few copies of mine (all done electronicaly and I print backups) all originaly signed. One in the boat, one in my wallet, one in my travel tackle bag...
 
Of course you have to wear them, you can't expect the DNR to ask each person to furnish it, also be wearing it, the DNR officer has no reason to get that close to the sparkles. I never wear mine, but TomMac just informed me the other day that NJ is cracking down on that.



In any event I will take my son's first grade class on a fishing trip so I can keep 200 Bass and only need one license, LOL just kidding.
 
That wearing stuff makes no sense to me?? WHY, whats the logic?
 
Trep, picture a bass tourney or even better opening day of trout season, the DNR officer is walking the bank of the Trout Stream looking for poachers, if he can clearly see everyone wearing the lic on there backs, he does not need to bother them and he does not accidently slip on "a rock" wink wink trying to get in the stream.



It's just an effecient way of license checks. And it's the law.



I certainly don't want somebody getting on my boat while I'm in a tourney just to look for a license.



 
Trep...



So that they can see it from a distance... I've had DNR officers check out my boat reg from a distance.



CJL...



The Creel Limit is per angler... not people in the boat... sorry dude, you went over the limit BIG TIME... IMHO. Part of the pourpose, atleast my understanding, of the license and creel limits are for the stocking managment efforts. IOW, if you must be licensed to legally fish, unlicensed people dont count in establishing the "maximum creel".



Trep... on the children, in KY, you dont need a license till a certain age... 12 or 14 I think, I still dont think someone netting a fish for you counts, but I wont argue that one.





Basically, check your regs and be sure you understand them... If any questions ask, and play to the more "restrictive" side when faced with a NC/SC debate.
 
But Chris, how easy with a color printer is it to FAKE one?? So if they are willing to be illegal poachers what makes folks think they won't fake a license? We actualy have 2 different groups of folks that patrol our water if I remember correctly, one that cares about boatting regs (life jackets, fire extinquishers...) and one that cares about fishing licenses, fish in the boat, rods....
 
CJL...



Just read this:



none of them legally need a lic to fish
Click to expand...
...



So I retract my earlier statement. I think it "bends" the rule, however.



Be careful of the possession limits, and make sure that, at the minimum, each party "could" have participated in the catch.
 
Sim,



Yes that is correct in NJ my younger boys would not need a lic. but would legally be able to have a limit of bass in there possesion, technically it's legal but that's where the DNR person would need to evalutate and act on a case by case basis. That was my point.



I would actually never do that.



CJL
 
Holy "what if's" Batman....



I have a license.....I'm going fishing now.

Peace out....:lol:
 
Okay. We're going to have a difference of opinion on all of this.



Let's try it this way.



3 on the boat. 2 fishing, one not (in actuality). 8 Rod's plus tackle in the boat and out on the deck. DNR does not 'SEE' anyone actually fishing.



DNR comes up. No one has a license. Who get's a ticket, or do any of them? They all claim to have been boating. No fish in the live well.



Tex

 
Easy.....The owner of the boat, it is their responsibility.



Let's face it if the Warden is a hard a$$, they can cite you for something.....By the way, when my daughter and I go Crappie fishing we can have 50 in posession(25 each). The fact that she does not have a license is moot, she's not required to have one and if we have more than 50, I get the ticket.



TOXIC
 
Tex, there is the letter of the law, and there is the spirit of the law.



The warden can write whatever ticket he likes based on the letter of the law. Doesn't make it right, nor does it make it legal.



That's why we have courts.



The spirit of the law is reflected across the entire body of law, including the constitution, and is often reaffirmed in courts. Citizens are served by government. Their rights, including presumption of innocence, equal protection under the law, security in persons and effects, etc., are core principles. Any game law or procedure that presumes guilt where non exists or cannot be proven will fail if challenged. It's just a matter of going through the process.

 
Tex...



I'm sure you can continue to find, regaurdless of answer, a situation where everyone in the boat SHOULD have a license to prevent getting a ticket. But to buy a license to "avoid trouble" isn't really the right answer, now is it? This is akin to "protection money", and is not how our society should work.



In the scenario you describe, you didnt list clothes, attitudes or anything... these will go along way with how the officer reacts.



Given what you did state, I'll bet the DNR officer cites all three, or at a minimum the owner/operator. He could also, at his discretion, confiscate everything, or he could do nothing, and let it go at a warning (probably not either of these two extremes).



In the end, whomever was tickted would have a harder time with his side of the story, but the simple question of "was x observed actually fishing" might be enough to persuade the judge to toss.



In our system, assumption of innocence is always going to go to the defense... it's the burden of the prosecution to prove guilt.



 
As I said before, I believe we will have a difference of opinion on this one.



Somebody is bound to know a DNR official that they can talk to on this. I bet Dan J. knows one in GA that he can get an opinion from.



Rusty, let us know how it turns out. If you feel that you've been wronged, I hope that you can get the JP to rule in your favor.



In the meantime - buy your wife a license (hint - do it before you go to court).



:):D:rolleyes:;)



Tex



 
Tex...



If he buys her a license before he goes to court, he is admitting that he/she is guilty of the infraction... (or it could at least be inferred by that action)



He has no obligation to buy her a license that she has no intention of "using". Nor should he.



Beyond that, you clearly missed the post where this has already been ruled in his favor, by the warden's boss.



 
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