to foil or not to foil....

[David Munaretto]

That is the question -- happened to notice in 1 of the replies the suggestion of putting a hydrofoil on to improve hole shot. When is it appropriate to invest in a foil? Seems like a minimal investment, and supposedly good performance boost -- any down side?



David

 

[Rich Stern]

Very little downside. You might lose a little top speed, depending on your setup. The upside is that the boat will get out of the hole better, come off plane flatter, and groove better in turns. They are well worth the little money they cost.

 

[David Munaretto]

I think we're both up too late Rich...



thanks-



d

 

[John Foster]

Some boats don't need them , But some do. Mine "NEEDS" one. As Rich mentioned. For the what they cost they do so much. And the great thing about it is if you don't like it after you have had it for a while. you can just take it off and the boat will be back to the way it was before. without costing anything to change it back.





John

 

[Mike Mann]

My boat just seemed to be a little bit of a dog out of the hole. I was thinking it was more less that I was running a 26 pitch prop and it was to much for it. The pick-up and top speed were fine, just a slow hole shot. After putting one on it's right up on plane and haven't noticed any lost of top speed. For as cheap as they are, it won't hurt to try it.



Mike

 

[Dan J.]

Be carefull with those hydra-foils. I watched a fella take a tight turn on Buggs Island when the foil grabbed, turning the boat like a door swinging open. Threw his partner out and about flipped a Ranger 520VX. Depending on the hull, it will change the cornering characteristics of every boat and voids the gear case warranty when the mounting holes are drilled. Good Luck!

 

[Mike Mann]

I've read that this will not void the warranty. I'll see if I can find where I saw this.

 

[TrepMan]

Bassman - I'd love to see something in writing about not voiding the warranty. I've talked to the Tracker Extended warranty folks (who i've got my warranty with) and while they will not tell me the foil would not void the warranty, they will not tell me will either. They said if there is ever an engine problem that I file under warranty AND they find out that the Foil caused the problem then they will NOT pay. Would not give me anything in writting either way. So the way I read them is it's up to the dealer and warranty person to decide and if they want to blame the foil they can.

 

[Rich Stern]

Michael, IF the foil caused the problem, why should the warranty be valid?



But there is no basis for automatically denying any warranty claim based on a foil being installed, and taking such a position would be a violation of Magnusson-Moss federal law that protects your OEM warranty rights relative to aftermarket products.



It's not unlike the automotive aftermarket. If I install an aftermarket muffler system on my vehicle, and then my alternator fails during warranty, the manufacturer would be very hard pressed to deny the warranty claim.



Even in the case of an outboard lower unit, drilling holes in the cavitation plate (done with reasonable workmanship) is not going to provide a valid reason for an internally torn-up gearcase. The warranty provider might try to deny the claim, but they wouldn't have a chance if you had any will and resources to fight them.

 

[Rich Stern]

Forgot to mention: A warranty provider can put any language they like (or care to omit) in a warranty. However, they are still obligated to certain standards under federal law, and nothing stated in the warranty changes that. Do a search for Magnusson-Moss on the Internet, and you'll get plenty of links, references, case reading, etc. Many consumers get hosed on warranty denials because they don't know their rights.

 

[Dan J.]

Most manufacturer's have an "alteration or modification" exemption for their products. Drilling through the factory gearcase cavitation plate would definitely fall under this heading unless prescribed or waived by the manufacturer.(I'd get it in writing!) This definitely effects the immediate area (gearcase housing) and could effect related componants. I've seem some botched jobs and can understand this reasoning. Just my $.02.



P.S. I'd also try other remedies like trading out props/venting, adjusting the load displacement, engine height on or offset from transom, just to name a few.

 

[Rich Stern]

Dan, I'm not trying to be difficult or a legal-beagle, but if my lower caes gears got torn up due to a warranty defect having nothing to do with a foil on the cavitation plate, there is no way I wouldn't challenge the manufacturer if they tried to deny a warranty claim, regardless of the warranty language.



Funny, over on the Sport Trac site, there is a thread going right now about a guy who had a wheel fall off his Sport Trac yesterday. Now, he has a 4" lift kit installed, heavily modified suspension, and he cut the A-arms himself for the modifications. Should Ford deny his warranty claim? Absolutely! It's more than likely a self-induced problem.



Common sense should prevail in these situations: If there is cause and effect from the aftermarket part and a failure, an OEM warranty should not cover it. If there is no relationship between an aftermarket part and a warranty failure, then the manufacturer should not try to hide behind the warranty. It's disrepectful to the customer to do so.



Sadly, there is too often dishonesty from both sides in warranty issues: Customer often says "I didn't do anything" when in fact they did do something. Manufacturer often says "we're not responsible", when if fact they really are.

 

[Mike Mann]

I had a Ski boat back in about 87 I had a few problems with the motor itself which I had installed a hydrofoil on. I took it back to the dealer and the problem was fix, and he never said anything about it to me. It sounds more like it's up to your dealer as to the nature of the problem was caused by this. Which lets face it, you'd almost have to try to screw up installing it. The worst you could do is put it on upside down ....... hey I better run out to the garage and check something ....... damn



Mike

 

[TrepMan]

Rich - I agree that if the warranty caused the problem it should NOT be covered under warranty. But not knowing diddly about outboards, a mechanic (or warranty adjuster) could easily tell me it was caused by the foil and i'd have no clue if he was lieing or not.



Now we're just settling on Beka's van, and that I know how to figure. I know I can check Kelly Blue Book, Edmunds and NADA to get Retail value of her specific optioned van and know exactly what options we have. So when State Farm offered me a figure it was exactly what I expected and in one case higher then I figured, but I don't know how to do the same with outboards.



I've also gone thru both sides of the fence with both auto warranties and other "insurance" policies - a lot of time unfortunetly it's the "your guilty until proven innocent and were not paying a dime". So from my perspective not being at all experienced with outboards and their warranties, i'm always on the cautious side (Plus Beka won't let me unless Tracker will tell her it will NOT void my warranty!).

 

[Mark Hofman]

I read several statements by Mercury on this issue. Drilling through the cav plate to install the foil will not totally void the outboard warranty. If the cav plate cracks or breaks (because you've drilled holes in it), the warranty will NOT cover the repair or replacment of that component.



If the lower unit gears, powerhead, or other mechanisms break the warranty MAY cover the repair unless the failure was caused by neglect or negligence.

 

[Rob LaMoy]

YEAH! What Rich said! LOL You go boy!

 

[Rich Stern]

MO, that's the common sense approach I am talking about.



Michael, I understand your caution. I am arguing a principle, and there are always practical considerations. Like not having to sleep on the sofa.

 

[SCOTT GARDNER]

This is what my dealer said:The foil can change the water flow around the the motor making it not pump enough water.I said if it is under water it will pump.He said it can also give enough lift to bring the intake holes out of the water.There for making it over heat and just about all motor problems could be linked to it over heating as a cause. He all so told me to do what i like but if it has a foil he would not do a warranty repair. This from a BPS

 

[Rich Stern]

scott g, thanks for relaying that. I find those comments from a dealer mind-boggling.



The intake holes are well below the foil. The foil would be out of the water long before the holes were out of the water. For the foil to lift the intake holes out of the water, it would have to be approximately the size and shape of a Cessna 172 wing, because it would be lifting the boat using air based on what your dealer described.



Jackplates present a very real overheat threat, and I have yet to hear any blanket statement about voiding warranties based on using a jackplate.



Lots of misinformation gets passed around on this topic.

 

[Dan J.]

Rich - I wish you could have seen the 150 lower unit I saw 2 yrs ago. Fella drilled out for his foil, spidering the case. He then used it because it wasn't leaking gear oil....yet. (You probably already see what 's coming.) When it finally spidered through under load it flushed his gearcase of fluid almost instantly and seconds later exploded the planetary gears in the foot. I just can't beleive the factory should be reponsible for self induced problems. Just my .02.

 

[Rich Stern]

Dan, I have no problem agreeing with your viewpoint in that situation. Poor installation results in damage to the lower unit, which in turn results in failure.



Someone can achieve the same result by botching a lower unit oil change at the start of the season. But Mercury doesn't specifically tell us that if we insist on doing the oil change ourselves, that they won't warrant the product against failure.



Any reasonably competent handyperson with some good drill bits can successfully mount a foil on a lower unit. These products are made by several reputable manufactuers, and are installed on literally thousands of boats. How many failures do you know of? I've never heard of one, except the one you just described, and you specifically stated that the installation was known to be botched.



Can you address what scott g's dealer told him? That a foil can cause the intakes to be out of the water and not get sufficient water flow? Does that point seem reasonable to you? Sorry, I'm putting you on the spot, but I am not yet ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[SCOTT GARDNER]

Rick the dealer was say not just the lift from out of the water but can change the water flow around the motor.Then making is harder far the pump to pump the water.I said if under water it will pump water .I can see the his point but not sure i agree with it.I would love to put one on my 2002 PT 175 with 40hp.But i will wait.