Gun Advice

[Mark Hofman]

I don't want this to turn into a this gun is better than that gun debate, but I need advice and a logic check from folks who have more experience than me.



Last Sunday I took and passed the basic qualification course to get my CCW permit. It was an eye-opening experience. One of the take-aways from the day was that none of my pistols or revolvers are really suitable for concealed carry (length, weight, capacity, caliber, controls, etc.).



I've never been a fan of Glocks because of the grip shape, but have only shot a 1st generation .45 and 9mm. Now I'm seriously considering switching to a 3rd Generation model. I've looked at information on the Glock 23, 27, 30 and 36 models, and am thinking hard about getting a Glock 23 (.40 cal) to carry with an inside the waistband holster or in my vehicle. Here are my questions:



1. Just how safe is this 'safe action' trigger system? Will I have to learn a whole new way of shooting to prevent an accidental discharge?



2. For CCW, how much difference would I experience between a compact pistol like the 23 and a sub-compact like the 27? What will I be giving up besides capacity if I step down in size to the 27 or the 36? Would the extra stopping power grained by going from the .40 up to a .45 worth giving up a few rounds in the magazine?



3. Besides equipping the pistol with night sights, would you recommend any other modifications for CCW? Would I gain any real advantage by getting a compensator equipped model (23C, for example), or is that more for competitive use?



4. From those of you who can or have carried in the past, what other advice would you give to a newbie beyond, "Get more training"?



The other pistols I took into consideration were the Stoeger/Beretta Cougar 8040 (smaller than my 96 Brigadier Centurion), Beretta PX4 .45 (great magazine capacity), and the Springfield XD Compact (grip safety like a 1911). My BUG will likely be a Ruger LCP or my wife's Walther PPK/S.

 

[Texas Transplant]

While I do not have the background/experience to comment directly, it contains some of the same questions that I have about CCW and the needs. I'm very interested in the responses.



Tex

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

Wait for it.........Glenn is only on chapter 3 of his response:lol::lol::lol:



TOXIC

 

[TritonGlenn]

I'm not going to bad mouth Glock, as some of my fellow Springfield owners do. Mainly because I believe it's a quality piece that does the job it's designed for. However, the one really main difference (for me) between the Glock and Springfield is the reason I went with the Springfield - the grip safety.



Now before I get into my "chapter 3" paragraph of this response (Thanks Tox :lol: ), I'll say that it is simply a personal preference. There are tons of Glock lovers out there that absolutely hate the fact the Springfield XD has a grip safety.



The real skinny on it is - yes, you can shoot yourself with the Glock by getting your finger onto the trigger and pulling it back while drawing. If you are safe about it, 99.9% of the people using them won't have problems. With my luck, I'd be in that .1%, so I bought the XD instead. In addition, to saying that, I will add that you can shoot yourself with any weapon, of any make, if you are not careful. No amount of safeties take the place of common sense and safe weapon handling practices.



I have two XD40's - The first is a XD Tactical, with a 6" aftermarket ported barrel, as well as the factory non-ported 5" barrel. I also own a XD Subbie with the factory 3" barrel. My father in law has a Glock 40 with the factory ported barrel / slide. I have shot (and drawn from a holster), both ported and non-ported models of these weapons. In that time, I made a decision never to draw a ported model from a concealed carry holster if I could help it. It snagged way too often on something.



On my subbie, I added TFO night sights (Tritium Fiber Optic), and they work extremely well. The other thing I added to it was Pierce grip extentions. They do not add additional capacity, but they give a little angled piece to rest my pinkie on. This way, my whole hand is on the grip of the pistol, without having a full length pistol grip that extends too far out of my waistband.



On the holster - if you want an awesome one, buy the Crossbreed Supertuck, and have them make you a belt at the same time. All of my "jeans" belts were too flimsy and weak. Every time I'd try to carry, it would pull my pants and belt down on that side. Buying a belt that was MADE for carrying a IWB holster made all the difference in the world.



My subbie has a "snap" to it that my tactical does not. It is a little more difficult to get back on target because of it's snappiness, so I practice more often. That has been attributed mostly to the shorter barrel.



I'm not going to get into the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 debate. I like my .40's. I've owned and liked many 9's and .45's too. They all will stop an attacker if used properly. They all can be used to miss an attacker and have you killed with your own weapon if not used properly. The main key is finding a round that YOUR particular weapon shoots accurately all the time. Practice with the same weight FMJ round, but regularly shoot some of your self defense HP ammo too to ensure you hit in the same place as your practice ammo. My Tactical likes 180 grain. My subbie prefers 165 grain. Both are .40 cal.



All the best,

Glenn

 

[Bob G.]

MOFish,



Congrats on the CCW permit. Once you figure out what you want to carry, carry all of the time. You'll never know when a situation arises and wished you were carrying a weapon. I have 4 permits for 32 states. None is needed for VT, can open and conceal carry here without a permit.



All that being said, I have no experience with Glocks. I personally don't like them. I like manual safeties. I carry 1911's in 45ACP and one spare mag. One has nightsights and Lasergrips, one has nightsights and one other is plain jane. To each their own though. No matter what you carry, get a good gunbelt and the best holster you can afford. I use 1.5" Beltman belts for everyday use and Milt Sparks Versa Max II IWB holsters. Adjust your wardrobe accordingly. Living in VT, I can get away with a fleece vest, jacket or hoodie most of the year. Summertime, I wear untucked flat bottom shirts. No one knows...except youse guys now!



I do like the looks of the Springfield XD Compact, but have never shot one. We don't have indoor ranges here with rentals, so I don't get to try other guns out to much.



Good luck.

 

[Gilbert Scales2]

I can offer advice on handguns. I shoot Glocks in competition, and I love them. The safe action is very safe, dropped, or for hitting it hard. It will not go off , unless you pull the trigger. I am not a Glock cult follower, however. No handgun will fire unless the trigger is pulled. I would not recomend a glock for a novice shooter. I think you are better off with a revolver. The ruger or smith 5 shot 38 is fine. With the revolver you can open the cylinder and check it easily. Glocks are great guns, I own several. I did however advise my son to start with the revolver. Another thing, I believe the most important about conceal carry... Almost all autos weigh more than the smith airweight or the Ruger LCR. If you are considering carrying, get something you won't weigh you down. You will probally leave it home most of the time, if it is a problem.



One last thing about any firearm

The first and most important safety is your brain

The second is your finger, keep it off the trigger until you are ready to shoot

Third, don't rely on any safety...go back to step one.

Bubby

 

[Dan J.]

Size and comfort of the frame chosen will be a big deciding factor for your duration of comfortable carry. I'm not a Glock fan and have done little more than shoot a few. I can't comment on them from lack of daily hands-on use, but I can suggest going with the larger round for CCW. It will limit the rounds carried. However, the knockdown factor will more than make up for it.



I carry a .45 because a .50 is too dang big, even on me. Plus, they don't make a .46.

 

[Mark Hofman]

Thanks, guys! Keep it coming! The advice about holsters and belts was unexpected, and very helpful.



My instructor didn't criticize or correct anything about my shooting grip, stance, or accuracy. For qualification I chose to shoot my Beretta 96 Border Marshall .40 (I prefer the .40 to a 9mm) and put 20 of 20 rounds of 180 grain FMJ into an area the size of a standard paper plate at 21 feet. With my Ruger SP101 snubby, I was shooting 110 grain HP .357 magnum loads and put all 20 into an area a shade smaller. Both were under stress induced by some additional requirements our instructor made us follow.



But two issues came to the surface immediately: 1.) I haven't been training myself to unconsciously flip the Beretta's manual safety/disconnect off as I come up to the low ready (keeping the index finger off the trigger until I have a sight picture, which I do religiously), and 2.) I don't like the double action first-shot followed by single actions. The first round is always off a bit and that's the round I want to have connect every time. When I went to shoot the first clip, my first trigger pull resulted in NOTHING because I hadn't flipped off the safety. Bad news in a life-or-death, eh?



Also, the piece is just too bulky to wear comfortably. It would be and is a good paddle holster OPEN carry/home defense kind of gun, but not a concealed piece. I would also hate to scratch it up. The SP-101 is too heavy (even for a backup gun) and bulky, and only gives me five rounds.



I considered the XD because of the grip safety, but I don't like how high the barrel and slide sit compared to my grip. The Glock seems to put the recoil more in line with my shooting arm. I'd love to step up to a .45 (own and shoot a Colt Gold Cup Mark IV Series 70 target pistol), but I'm used to .40s and the cost of .45s may be prohibitive for practice.



Unfortunately I won't be able to carry all the time. I work where firearms are prohibited both by federal law and employer policy, and I do a lot of work-related travel via airline. I also can't take the gun with me to my evening classes because the university prohibits the possession of a firearm on its property even if its inside my vehicle. I could put a gun safe in the vehicle, but wouldn't want anyone to see me taking off a holster, belt and handgun just to comply with the law.



Our mandatory class was excellent. The instructor went well beyond the state minimums into some important tactical and pistolcraft advice (pistol retention during reloads, building muscle memory, blind indexing a partially loaded revolver, seeking economies of motion to speed response, etc.). It also showed me that I need more training and much more practice doing what I would need to do in a life-or-death situation.

 

[Greg Meyer]

Mark,



One aspect of your post caught my attention... Obviously, I carried off duty and my pistol of choice was the same as on duty... Gov't Model .45ACP.... What was the reasoning in the list/criteria you were given? The holster is the make or break in any carry, concealed or not.



I (alomost always) carried my .45 in the small of my back in a custom DeSantis inside the belt... And, I carried condition One... Loaded, cocked and locked... Never did shoot myself or others... (well at least "others" unless they needed to be shot...that's another story)



I'm old school... All these "lawyered" pistols are the answer to a question that shouldn't be asked... LOL



The littlest, skinniest, concealed package I would consider carrying was a .38 Mdl 36 S&W with a 3" barrel and a round butt... Custom stockes by Herret... After that I felt better armed with a sharp #2 pencil over 9mm and down...

 

[Mark Hofman]

Greg,



Thanks. When you reference my "list/reasoning" is it the short list of potential handguns I considered or something else in my post?



Because of my 'frame', I'll either carry four o'clock IWB (Milt Sparks-style leather or Kydex like the Supertuck), or in an SOB rig. I like the idea of the SOB, just don't have any experience drawing from that position.



My open carry holster for the Beretta is a Gould & Goodrich OWB three-slot pancake (I draw better from the forward cant position, but find the high side position more comfortable if I have to sit for long periods). On the SP-101 it's been a Bianchi Accumold OWB. My favorite holster is the Fobus paddle holster that came with my Sig Mosquito. Very comfortable, very safe.



I forgot to mention that my wife is planning to 'buy' me a Kimber Pro CDP II as a graduation gift, just 'cause I want one. That may be another carry option at some point.

 

[Texas Transplant]

Great information. Really appreciated.



Biggest surprise in the 'Tex Household' is that my wife wants to learn to shoot. We've had some breakin's at our apt. in the DFW area, and that has her thinking. Going to find a local range where she can start with my Ruger Single 6, and she how she does and go from there.



And I'm certainly thinking about going through with my CCW intent, once things regarding us moving settle down a bit.



Tex

 

[fatrap]

Mo

Glocks are one of the best pistols out there for price and useablity a 23 is a good choice. That being said, Do I like them? NO Just don't and don't have a real good reason why. Just don't like the looks and feel. Can I shoot one YOU BET.

My CCW choices are either a 9x18 CZ 82 or a Colt Commander .45 ACP. Sometimes a Taurus PT 101 in .40 s&w. (sorry Glenn I lied about only have a rubberband gun).

I've sold a ton of Glocks at BAss Pro and I can tell you they have a high customer satisfaction. If it fits you and you shoot it well and you like the looks it's for you IMO. Keep the junk on it to the minimum. Remember Murphy loves trinkets on firesarms especially ones with batteries. Trinkets(lights toys etc) also add to snagability.

If your a CCW carrier you should(IMO) train or practice at the very least monthly hopefully more. Dry carry drills such as drawing from a coat your back etc can be practiced at home while the commericals are on tv.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

fatrap

 

[Mark Hofman]

Thanks, fatrap!



I'm going to rent one from a local range to see how I like it, and how well I can shoot it before I drop five or six Ben Franklins on one.



Just curious, what is Bass Pro asking for a 23 these days (fixed sights and night sights, if that's even offered)? I've got two dealers close by, plus Cabelas and another sporting goods store a bit farther away.



Fortunately I've got a .22 Sig to practice with, and our instructor had a Glock with a .22 conversion barrel, slide and magazine so maybe that's an option too. He gave us a list of "spend ten minutes a week doing THIS dry practice drill, and ten minutes a week doing THIS OTHER dry practice drill, and...



I need to get some snap caps.

 

[Bill McElroy]

I carry a Kimber .45acp also.....and as Dan J. says....only because they don't make a .46!!..LOL (I fully subscribe to the theory they teach you in class...."end the conflict ASAP!",..and with a .45...a follow up shot is usually not necessary!) I have the .45 and a S&W 9mm (model 910)...both have CT sights and are dialed in perfectly...10 shots in a 3" circle at 15yds! I agree with Greg too...the holster is the make or break as far as comfort. When I wear mine, you can't even tell. Love it!

 

[firedog978]

Mo, first to answer some of your questions about which handgun to carry. You have to ask (and answer) several questions when considering this.

1. Which one do you know or can know intimately? I mean by that, draw it and fire it (accurately), without having to think about steps you need to take. Second nature!

2. Which one can you conceal easilly while getting to it in a split second.

3. What type (pistol or revolver), with preferred caliber.

Each of these questions can and likely will generate additional questions. i.e. Which holsters are available. Is it comfortable in your daily routine to wear all day. Etc.

Whatever you choose, please do not make (ammo) cost for practicing a priority. What's your life worth? If you prefer 45ACP eat the cost.



Secondly, I own (and carry) any number of handguns. Glock, Ruger, S & W, Kimber, Sig, Kel Tec and a few others. It all depends on the way I am dressed. Each has it's preference and/or shortcomings. I practice (frequently) with any and all of them. As a point of fact, I ususally carry my Glock 23 (40 S&W 180gr.JHP/XTP). To answer that question; you asked specifically about Glock 23. I love that for a CCW. It has all of what I personally want in a CCW and it IS SAFE!



Also, I do not wish to get into a caliber war here but, whatever round you carry the number one priority is 'shot placement'! Through my career from which I am now retired, I had the fortunate or misfortune oppotunity to be on the scene of many, many shootings. I have seen all calibers kill. And, I have seen all calibers fail to stop. IMHO, there is no magic bullet, or more appropriately a magic caliber that STOPS. I have also, been witness to many post mortem autopsies.

Remember, no criminal wants to pick an armed victim. Even if that victim fights back with a 22 plinker.



Hope this helps.



p.s. I also agree with who said, keep the bells and whistles off it. Most defense uses of CCW are up close. Night sights etc. usually have no consequence.

 

[Mark Hofman]

Now you've got me re-thinking the option of a Glock 36. Lighter, thinner, six+1 rounds of .45 in a single stack mag. I'm inclined toward the .40 because I've shot it the most. But if two rounds of .40 are needed to stop an attack when one round of .45 will do, it may be a better choice. Training costs are cheap, given I have choices for various guns and ammo (including reloads for my .357). The .22 conversion kit my instructor had was fitted to a Glock 36 frame. That would be an ideal training option too.



Regardless of what gun and holster I end up choosing, I'm going to need to re-train my brain and muscle memory anyway,. Now may be a good time to switch calibers and learn something from scratch rather than work against something that's familiar. New holster, new action/safety, new caliber. One of the reasons I'm leaning toward the Glock is the lack of the manual safety/disconnect and constant trigger pull. It seems more like a revolver's action - sight picture, squeeze, reacquire the sight picture, squeeze... Very simple.



I will also be signing up for some true, tactical and defensive pistolcraft courses where there are shoot/no shoot decision to make, targets are moving or behind cover, I'm moving or behind cover, etc.



Another question: is it true that you can dry fire a Glock without damaging it, or would it be wise to still use a snap cap?

 

[Gilbert Scales2]

Mo, yes you can dry fire a glock without damage. I dry fire all of my new glocks 1000 times before going to the range. It doesn't happen at one time, I usually watch the tube and get 50 during commercials. The trigger is a whole lot better after it has been dry fired or fired that many times. I would consider the 23, and not the 36. The 36 has had issues, you get a good one or bad one.I agree with Firedog about the caliber thing. Check the FBI stats on hanguns, you will realize that bigger isn't always better. It is better to have a well placed 9mm, than a missed vital 45. Only in the movies do people get blown away or backwards with a handgun(except the magnum calibers). The 40 is a great round, I carry a 9mm... or 38 spl. I live on the Westbank of New Orleans, and am sad to say there are shootings every day. Most handgun fights happen within 7 yards, and 4or 5 shots are fired by the parties involved. Another thing, our summer days here are hot and humid. We put as little clothes on as possible. I cannot imagime carrying a fullsize 45. Sweating all over a Kimber or other big dollar Concealed carry gun, doesn't fit me. I do work outside at times and just stick my LCR in my pocket holster. I think everyone has great input into this question, and am glad to see the different opinions.

Bubby

 

[Mark Hofman]

Gilbert,



Thanks! My wife used to live on the Westbank near the Harvey Canal! (I was a snob and rented a townhouse in Kenner.) Two times during our stint in the Big Easy I had idiots brandish a handgun at me just to show how much of a moron they were. "See, I'm tough because I have THIS!" First time was in Metarie just off Veterans Blvd. Second time was in an apartment complex off of Lapalco. Neither pointed the weapon in my direction.



I appreciate what you've added to this discussion.

 

[Dan J.]

The video in the link attached will give you an idea of why I carry a SS Judge often. It fits in my cargo shorts pocket, bib pocket or coat pocket depending on the weather. I'm favoring this more and more as my primary CCW, although a full frame .45 harness just feels better to me under a jacket or coat. (A couple full mags pouched opposite side balances this "man-zere" quite well. ) The knockdown (or applied impact force) of the Judge is relative to a hand cannon. :lol: It'll only hold 5 rds. in the wheel, but won't jam in a crisis. I figure after those 5 rounds, one of us'll be dead!
http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm

 

[Gilbert Scales2]

Mo, you are welcome! I live on the Lafitte Larose Hwy. I was born/raised in Mayberry (Gretna). New Orleans is another world to me, stay away as much as I can. The Kenner area has slid pretty good lately. I will be in New orleans tommorrow...In the SuperDome praying(I mean pulling) for the Saints. They gave us our best season ever, no matter what happens. How could you move from the Sportsman's paridise??? I have been trying for years, just cannot do it. I took my CCW course at the Gretna police station.

You know then what I am talking about with our weather, and how humid it gets. A cc weapon is a tool, and it will need to handle the elements. I am a 1911 person myself, shoot many matches. Every handgun I own has 1000's of rounds thru them. I too hated the tuberware guns (glocks) until I was offered to shoot in a Glock match. I didn't have a glock, so I bought the 19. I can say this, they are simple...and shoot when you pull the trigger. I still however rather my 1911's and revolvers. I do carry a glock 26, or the Ruger LCR. Get what you feel best with. Good Luck



Bubby

 

[fatrap]

Mo one round of .40 will serve just fine. Our Glock's are mid fives plus tax. The Glock 22 is standard police issue here and my nephew who is a Dective on the PD loves his. Without frequent practice it's not going to matter a whole lot what you have. Handgunning is a perishable skill.

fatrap

 

[Larry Morganstern]

If you happen to be retired military with a valid id card, you can purchase from authorized Glock Law Enforcement Distributors. For $398.20, you can get a Glock 17, 19, 26, 31, 32, 33, 22, 23, or 27. Add $79.20 for Trijicon night sights. The 10mm, .45 GAP, and .45 ACP models cost a little more. Here's the distributors they currently show: http://www.gssfonline.com/GSSF_PISTOL_PURCH_LIST.pdf

 

[TritonGlenn]

DocGlock,

That is VERY interesting to know. Is this written anywhere, because I live in San Antonio, TX and have been to Dury's gun shop? My fellow retired military brethren have also. Nobody ever mentioned this to us before. If we can bring proof of this to Dury's, and they actually do it, I'd be willing to bet there would be a bunch of new Glock owners in my office this coming payday - including one fella that has been asking us questions on a daily basis about getting a quality pistol for about $400.

Thanks for that info.

All the best,

Glenn

 

[Larry Morganstern]

Glenn,



The best thing to do is call Glock at 770-432-1202 and ask them about their Homeland Security program. I saw it somewhere in my two foot stack of gun related magazines and Glock papers from the Glock Sport Shooting Foundation (GSSF). When I went to the LE distributor here in Little Rock to get a G19 with my GSSF certificate, I asked them if I had read that correctly, and they said it was true, I could buy Glocks from them at LE prices with my retired military id card. Using the GSSF certificate has a limit of one per year, and using my retired id has no limit.



Later today I'll go through that stack again and try to find where I saw that in print. Also, have you tried just calling Dury's and asking them about it? It wasn't "mentioned" to me, I had to ask about it.

 

[Gilbert Scales2]

You don't have to be LE or retired military to get GSSF discounts. You do however have to be a member of GSSF. You are limited to one discount gun per year.



Bubby

 

[Larry Morganstern]

Glenn,

Did you or any of your friends call and get Glock's anwswer?

 

[TritonGlenn]

No. Not yet. I mentioned it to a few people in my shop who rolled their eyes and gave me a "Now you tell me!" look (one even said it out loud) :lol: . Seems quite a few of them bought or received new handguns for Christmas.



However, I did start thinking about whether or not my current brand of pistol would have such a deal, so I started looking into it, and it sounds like they do. I just need to call Springfield Armory to find out.



I just saw their new XDm 3.8, and was enticed, but it's only available in 9mm. I really have my sights set on (pun intended) a XDm .40 in OD Green with the stainless slide and black controls. Really sweet looking weapon.



All the best,

Glenn

 

[JR F]

I have given many 27s they are perfect///Go for It



Yes you can get police or miltary priceing save big bucks////