Choose your hunting partners wisely!!!

[Rob LaMoy]

I suppose the same could be said for fishing partners but this lesson was DRIVEN home to me during my trip to Kansas this week.



I was invited to go to Kansas on a quail and pheasant trip by an old friend that I used to hunt with. I say USED to because I stopped hunting with him because of his bandit ways. He is from Lebanon and there they have to governing laws concerning hunting but we DO here and he knows that. He used to shoot woodcock before season and leave them in the woods to keep from getting caught. He would regularly shoot over his limit of pheasant here and when woodcock were in season he was always shooting over his limit. He always had some BS rationalization as to why it was OK.



He also used to shoot right behind people's homes and one time right next to a school.

So needless to say, I stopped hunting with him for several years.



Then, just before Christmas, he invited me on this trip and even offered to pay my way since money is tight. I thought he had changed and given the opportunity, I felt I couldn't pass it up.....well I SHOULD have.



24 hours one way in a Tahoe with a guy and his employee (another guy that came with us who was only 25 and is just like this guy I'm speaking of) with 3 dogs in the back and tons of gear is a true test of character.

But it allowed me to know right off that he had indeed not changed at all. He was bragging about how many times he had killed 10-12 woodcock a day (limit is 3) and how he had killed 10 pheasant on opening day (limit is 2), and so on. This is the same nimrod who cannot understand why bird numbers are down from year to year, especially on his coverts.



Anyway, we get to KS and it is roosters only out there. He and the other guy began immediately saying how they would knock down a hen if they saw it.



Well to not drag it any longer, for the first two days we saw more pheasant then I have collectively seen of NY's released birds in my entire life! It was amazing....that part of it. However, These two made it tough to hunt by not listening to anything the guide said. The guide was an older man and couldn't actually accompany us in the field so would drop us off and pick us up at the end of our drives. This made it so he did not see what the two bandits were up to.



On the first day they killed and left at least 5-6 hens between the pair of them. At one point I just started hunting off on my own because I was so upset, so I have no idea how many more they killed when I wasn't there.



Also, this guy's dogs were HORRIBLE. They had the nose and genetics, that was apparent, but they lacked any real training. They would range anywhere from 75 to 400 yards out in front of us ruining the hunting.



I was able to get my first wild KS pheasant that day and that was good. I also saw a LOT of wildlife that you don't normally see in NY.



On day 2, they continued there rampage and killed at least 3 roosters over their limit and left them in the field so they would get caught. They also left at least one quail they were too lay to go and get.



Finally, they went hunting right into someone's back yard.



I LOST it! I snapped and told them both that they were the disease that plagues hunters and the reason that so many posted signs keep going up. That by acting the way they did, the insured that our children would have nowhere to hunt in 20 years and that they are why hunters have such a poor public image in some areas.

It nearly came down to fist fight.



I tried to hint to the guide what they had done, and he didn't care, and when I asked him for a ride to the airport to fly out that night rather than ride back with these guys, he wouldn't get involved at all.



So I was stuck with them. On the 3rd and final day as we were walking into this riverbottom area we were watching a bald eagle and a hawk flying over. Then this nimrod shot the hawk!!! A federa

 

[William H. (Bill) Barham]

Geeezzz, Rob, I don't know how you put up with all of that. I don't hunt anymore but have no problem with people that do EXCEPT for guys like this. I wish there was something you could do to get them nailed, and punished real good.

 

[JR F]

Ever hear of being very close by the ear when you Blast..It usually takes care of all problems forever...If you can't hear them take off you can't be quick enough to shoot....Damm I am evil..:wacko: Sgt. JR " No SYMPATHY " Damm NAM

 

[Mark Hofman]

Rob:



If I were in your shoes there would be a couple of things I would do immediately, before my memory faded.



First, I would call the Kansas Department of Wildlife and report the guide. Although he didn't overtly do anything illegal, he was a party to the hunt and was responsible for monitoring compliance with Kansas state regulations. If he doesn't care enough to get involved, he shouldn't be a guide. The attitude indicates to me that he's just too stupid to realize he's hurting his own business in the long run.



I would also put in an anonymous tip about the hawk. Federal law is federal law, and at least that way you're protecting yourself against any recrimination.



And I back your idea about bringing this guy up with your local fish and game authority. He doesn't deserve the privilege of hunting and fishing and is ruining the good reputation of sportsmen everywhere.



Sorry to hear the experience wasn't what you had hoped it would be.



(On the good side, at least you didn't get accidentally shot in the side of the head like two of the guys where I work! The poor guy who pulled the trigger was fortunate that the pheasant he was shooting at absorbed most of the pellets! Between the two of them it was only four pellets, but they said it stung like a gaggle of hornets.)

 

[Mark Hofman]

Kansas Department of Wildlife & Parks

512 SE 25th Ave., Pratt KS 67124

(620) 672-5911

 

[Greg Meyer]

Rob,



That was a miserable circumstance for you to be in...

 

[Dan J.]

Dude, listen to MO. You owe it to yourself to have a clean conscience and preserve the rights you want for your kids protected, just like the hunters in KS and their kids deserve. It seems that just about every ethical, legal, and moral law was broken by those idiots in the wild and the guide just turned his nose to it. The best thing to do is make sure it can't happen again. Just my .02.

 

[Scott Powell]

From one lifelong dedicated hunter - without question: TURN THEM IN IMMEDIATELY!

 

[fatrap]

Rob

I emailed you

fatrap

 

[Rich Stern]

Sickening to read.



Rob, if you didn't completely burn your bridge with these guys, I'd like to suggest another approach:



You don't want it to be your word against theirs. Try to get your local natural resources dept. to set up a sting. Maybe a local trip where an undercover ranger comes along as your hunting buddy. You are dealing with criminals who are hurting your community. Enlist the help of the people who are supposed to be protecting the rest of the hunting community from these guys.

 

[Andrew Zuber]

Great idea Rich!



az

 

[Brian Ingersoll]

That is ridiculous- it's one thing to take over your limit of game, either on purpose or accident, and a completely different level to leave it in the field to rot. It is our duty as hunters to make every effort to retrieve downed game and make proper use of that game. As you can see the part about leaving it in the field really pi$$es me off. Turn them in and don't think twice about it.

 

[Sue DeLelys]

I guess I just don't understand why you didn't immediately leave and call someone about the bunch of them...

 

[Jody Woodruff]

"Hunters" like that is exactly what PETA tries to make us all out to be which is nothing more than nuts out shooting whatever moves. These two losers definately need to be caught by the game wardens whether it be by a "sting" or turned in. There is no room for idiots like that in today's society where hunting is more and more under siege by the anti hunters. They give us all a black eye.

 

[Mark Gross]

Three men walk into the woods,........only one man walks out ? what happens nobody knows.:lol::lol::lol::unsure:

 

[Rob LaMoy]

Rich,

That's a good idea, but I wouldn't put it past them to do something to my dog, house, and/or truck once they were nailed and knew it was me that turned them in. By doing it anonymously, they won't know who it was. I'd love for them to know just on principle alone, but it's not worth the risk.



Sue, I really couldn't. I used all my money to get out there and had NO cash. I did have my wife borrow some money and put it in our acct so I could rent a car a leave on the second night, but the guide would not take me to the rental place and it nearly came to blows out there in the field. I was literally sitting beside the truck with a loaded shotgun in case things got worse. In my mind, someone who lacks ethics that much is but a split second decision away from having an "accident" and shooting me. I've been shot once, didn't like it then and don't want to repeat it.



I was so mad I was shaking. I had threatened to go over and knock him out at one point but figured it would most likely be ME that ended up in jail, and he was smart enough to not throw the first punch because he knew I could and would clean his clock. There was more to the story too, but I thought the post was long enough.



I ended up having to ride home with these yahoos.....it was a LONG 25 hours home.

 

[Bill McElroy]

Rob,...if you choose to do nothing,......then you're part of the problem!! FIX IT!!:angry:

 

[Ken Neeley]

Ditto what Mac said.

 

[Sue DeLelys]

Rob, You said that the guide refused to take you to the airport so you could fly out the second night. So, you had a way to leave, The guide not taking you sounds like he held you against your will. Was there no telephone available for you to call the authorities?



I feel that you had the option to do the right thing....and didn't.

 

[Mark Hofman]

Hindsight is always 20/20. And I don't think anyone can understand what you were going through at the time it was happening, so playing Monday-morning quarterback may not be the most helpful thing.



The reality is that you were party to the shooting of a federally protected bird. What's to prevent the guide from dropping a dime to the Kansas Department of Wildlife and fingering YOU for shooting it? The only defense here is a strong offense. And since your hunting partners were from out-of-state, there isn't much you can do for something that took place in Kansas except put legal pressure on the guide. Then he may turn around and name names, and you can honestly say you didn't turn them in.



And I would put ten country miles between me and those guys from here on out. You don't want to be anywhere near them when the hammer hits the anvil.



Just my final $.02 on the matter.

 

[Greg Meyer]

Rob,



I agree with MO to a point... Put some distance between you and them, first and always from here on out. Next, I would send a letter to the KS DNR (or whatever it is called) "reporting" the Guide (I use that term loosely...). Whether you do so anonymously or sign your name, does not matter. Whatever you do, mail yourself a copy of the letter and do not open it unless you need it to prove what you sent to KS and when... You will have apostmarked record of your version for posterity and for evidence if it is ever brought into question. You may also wish to send the KS letter anonymously but in a form, such as certified with a tracking number and receipt. You do not need to have disclosed who you are for certified receipt with ONLY on-line reporting of the delivery....

 

[Greg Meyer]

A PS... Rob,



If you turn in the guide anonymously and there is a follow-up don't be surprised if they figure out it was you. Won't take "Dick Tracy" to figure that out... So, weigh the potential costs at this point with any benefit... If you could be sure that something would come of it it could be worth the cost... If all that happens is a half hearted look see from KS and nothing else... Might not be worth what the "yeahoos" you went out there with might do...



And, folks that is from someone who would back Rob anytime anywhere he's asked, without any explanantion. Rob is real good people and I would never question his ethics or motives. I only question his sanity in the glass vs tin debate! In all else I'm his "six".

 

[Sue DeLelys]

Greg,



I'm not questioning Rob's ethics or motives either. But I am stating that he allowed himself to be put in a bad situation, had choices to get out of it and did nothing about. As a fellow hunter, I am appalled at the entire situation.



And I will also admit that the situation angers me on several different levels. First is the lack of responsibility. Rob willingly went on the trip and hoped that the "old friend" had changed his ways, without evidence that he had.



Then he was party to many game laws being broken.



He makes a distinction between shooting a hawk and a bald eagle. Both are federally protected but says if they had shot the eagle he said would have "punched the guy in the mouth".



Almost everyone has a cell phone. And there are telephones in stores etc. If a crime is committed, the authorities should be notified. There were several committed over 3 days and Rob did nothing about them. As far as I am concerned, he is just as wrong in this situation as the other 3 are.



Just my .02

 

[Aaron Scott2]

I'm with Sue on this. There has to be more to this story. Rob, you are a guide for bass and upland birds? You stopped hunting with this idiot because he broke laws? But you decided to ride with a criminal for a 24 hr. trip because he paid your way? Scum like that do not change, they need to be changed. I would bet that he has hunted with that guide before.



By the way, what does it take to become a guide. An oath? A license? What?



No way would I have gone with those guys, and certainly I would not have come home with them.



You just made a poor decision, as we all have at some time in our lives. It is up to you how you resolve it, but if you are the guy Greg Meyer says you are, it has to be eating you up inside. Help bust those guys, and the guide.

 

[Rob LaMoy]

OK, this very post is a perfect example of why I have not frequented this site in so long. Read the FACTS folks and it tells a very different story than what many are portraying above, and like I said, there WAS more to the story.



I was NOT party to any crimes committed, I immediately left whenever I saw something happen. I did not know that the other guy was also an outlaw until I got in the field with him. The "old friend" had told me he didn't do those things anymore and I took him at his word.



I had NO cell reception where I was and the few times I did I tried to make arrangements to leave. Now, the airport was 25 miles away, the guide would not take me, and certainly these two yahoos wouldn't even when I asked them. I certainly cannot walk 25 miles at night carrying all the gear I brought along with a 12 gauge shotgun. I couldn't fly home because I had my gun and did not have an FAA approved, locking case to transport it in.



I HAVE already begun the process of having them turned in here for infractions in NY but as far as the KS deal, it will end up being their word against mine and the guide will obviously take their side as to not lose his license. Now there is a guide and 2 hunters words against mine. Long story short, they finger me and I lose MY license and guide license. So before anyone rushes to judgement, perhaps you should honestly put yourself in MY shoes and weigh ALL the factors before offering a suggestion. Trust me, I have thought about this nonstop for a week now and as I said above AM going to take action. I'm just going to make damn sure the action will end up is some form of justice and not just be idle chatter. I am also going to make DAMN sure that I encounter no negative repercussions for their actions.



Need I remind everyone that I was caught in the field with 2 guys with no ethics, loaded guns, who had just committed crimes in front of me and KNEW that I was not at all pleased with it. Sure it's easy to say what to do in that situation when you're NOT the one with 2 pi$$ed off guys looking at you sideways. At NOT that that scares me either, but I didn't want a bad situation to escalate into a worse one where I was brought up on murder charges for protecting myself.



I fully expected the guide to stop the hunt, turn them in, and give me a ride to the airport. When that didn't happen, my options got smaller rapidly.

What, do I turn them in with them right beside me in the lodge or truck? How do you suppose THAT would have went?



All I ask is that everyone think it over it bit more before you assume guilt by association.



Thanks Greg for watching my 6 as always.



Aaron, all it takes, at least in NY is a license. But there are many guides, some ethical, some not. I am an ethical guide. Many will allow their clients to shoot their limit as well, I do not! Some will turn a blind eye to actions like this....I do NOT!



In will keep everyone updated as to what happens. But as much as I would like to openly testify and have these two busted, I have to keep a level head and do what's right for my business, family, dog, and welfare as well.

 

[Ken Neeley]

Rob,

Makes more sense now.....as Greg said, do the right thing and cover yourself as well.

 

[Christopher Laurencio]

Rob,



I got an extra big helping of what happens when you try "to do the right thing" and how far people will lie to cover themselves and cause you or your family harm.



Maybe an unpopular comment from me, but I would do nothing if I were you, you learned not to trust those guys, not to associate with them and you returned unharmed and not in trouble. Leave it alone, cause your only going to make trouble for yourself. Other than getting on the defensive if they turn the tables and try and blame you for things they did, I would leave it be.



Remember everybody, Rob has a family to consider, the individuals he was invloved with sound to be of "no morals" and would wait for his back to be turned, it's easy to say what you would have done, but you were not there, he was and had to deal with these people and get back home.



CJL

 

[Mark Hofman]

Rob,



I apologize for using the phrase, "party to the shooting." What I meant was that you were part of a group of out-of-state hunters who (at least one of whom, anyway), utilizing the services of a local guide, engaged in an activity that violated federal law and potentially several state laws. There currently is nothing that will protect you from being named an active participant those activities if the authorities discover what happened. That kind of predicament would scare the bejeezus out of me, and I'd be looking for a way to get on the good side of the authorities before losing control of the situation.



How do you do that? I can't say for sure, but getting your side of the story on record first would help I think (but others can certainly correct me).



As far as people telling you what you should have done differently at the time, I agree with you. I wasn't there, and I didn't witness or experience everything you did. So second-guessing your choices and decisions is, in my opinion, a big waste of time. Based on what you've shared, I don't see how you could have gotten away from the situation anyway.



But legally, you're exposed. It's the word of three against the word of one, and the tables could turn against you so very quickly. If nothing else, please consider discussing this with a competent attorney who will act in YOUR best interests. See what your options are. Maybe CJL is right, doing nothing lets the storm of controversy die down.



Again, my apologies for not choosing my words more carefully. I just don't want to see you get blamed for something you didn't - and wouldn't ever - do.



MO

 

[Dan J.]

Rob - I'm with you however you go, but hundreds of miles away don't help but give a "warm fuzzy" in front of your computer. In the long run I know you'll do what's right by you and yours and serve up a little justice up for the idiots you were stuck with. I think you'll feel better knowing they were delivered to our common acceptance of laws and decency by your hand. Good luck man!

 

[Bill McElroy]

I just have one more question.......if you KNEW you couldn't fly home anyway knowing you didn't have an FAA approved gun case,...WHY did you want to go to the airport anyway??



Just curious...cover your arss and make a phone call to the KS DNR....give them all the names and as much info as you can and let THEM take it from there. You could probably even do it anonomously...they arent going to bust you,...but they'll deffinitely be on the look out for them!! IMHO anyway...



Take care...

Mac

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

Rob do what you feel is best. You know what is right and you are a protector of the natural resources the same as the rest of us. Under no circumstances endanger your self or your family. Bozo's like these guys will eventually get caught on their own but if you can give the authorities a nudge in the right direction then by all means do it. I think the severity of disrespect those guys showed to something we all hold so near and dear on this site is what has got people a little flustered. Don't take it personally.





TOXIC

 

[Sue DeLelys]

I think that a better title for this thread should have been choose your hunting partners and your words wisely.



I still feel that there were alternatives, however I understand that hindsight is 20-20 and armchair quarterbacks always win.



In most cases, knowledge of a crime committed and not reported is almost as bad as having committed the crime itself. I know that I wouldn't want it on my conscience.



Rob, you posted voluntarily and then did not like how some of us responded. If you were not ready to accept both sympathy and criticism, you should not have posted in the first place.As you requested, I have reread the facts in the first post and I still come to the same conclusion. At the end of your post you mention turn in poachers whenever you can, but you didn't. And to me, that is still wrong.

 

[fatrap]

I just revisted this post and I will add my final two cents worth. If I was On a limited budget if someone gave me the opportunity to go hunt somewhere I've never had the chance to go, I'd probably go with the Devil herself even if I suspected there might be problems. Whose to know it might have turned out great. It didn't so a lesson learned thats been established.

As for turning them in. I asked a DNR agent here and he said that Kanas probably already has an idea that the guide is dirty and are just gathering evidence the guide community is a close one and chances are someone is on to him. You need lots of evidence over a period of time to make a case. Last season a man confronting a poacher had his abdonmen sliced open an nose almost cut off and left for dead. Confronting any game violator is risky business.

Bottom line is forget Kanas. It's past.

As for turning them in in NY. If you see or learn of a violation, have to try and write down: a description of the violator; a description of their vehicle; the location of the violation; and the type of violation. The DNR has to catch them in the act or have evidence on them or at their residence to make it stick, then in most cases it's a misdemeanor. That's why game laws are so hard to convict on. Rob would have to follow them, see an infraction, and then turn them in and hope a DNR agent would arrive on time to get them. Fat chance districts are large and DNR agents few. The following information would be needed:.

Type of animal: (deer, elk, etc.) Type of violation: (possession, killing, etc.)



Name of Suspect: Address:

No. Street City

Description of suspect: Age Hair Eyes Wt.

Outstanding or unusual features:



License

Suspect Vehicle: Make Model Color Plate No.



Violation: Date Time Location



Order of Events

Have you actually seen the animal(s) involved?



Where is the animal located? (barn, freezer, etc.)



Nature of suspect: (prone to violence, convicted felon, etc.)



This would amount to a maybe misdemeanor conviction. I'm not saying turn them in but be prepared for the $%it storm that follows. I have turned in poachers on five different occasions mostly deer hunters. By the time it was investigated no evidence was left in all but one occasion where there was blood in the pick up box.

My point in all this is......it's pretty damn hard to get these guys. At best you alert the DNR officers to the peoples tendencies to poach and if