BASS and FLW (venting somewhat)

[Texas Transplant]

In general - Open practice and Information Sharing (venting somewhat)



From Bassfan.com :



<<<



Aside from last week's Kentucky Lake FLW, the only other time Tony Gagliardi made an FLW Tour Top 10 cut was in 2002, and he finished 10th. He also hasn't exactly been lighting up the points standings. So what was different last week? The main thing was that he practiced differently. He knew how he wanted to catch fish, and stuck to it.



He arrived at the lake 7 days before the tournament started, 2 days before he gets to most tournaments. "I had more time this time, and I pretty much knew that that crankbait bite (would be happening) and I like to catch them doing that if I can," he said. "So I came out a little early."



He figured out where to start fishing in part because he cranked at last year's Kentucky Lake FLW. "I didn't do very well in the tournament (he finished 76th), but I had enough fish found that it gave me the confidence to try it again this year."



He also had some good information. "I have a friend who lives (near Kentucky Lake). He told me the types of areas and places I needed to look for, and I went from there. Him telling me that made all the difference," he noted. "I had some good information, and the first day (of practice) I went and found a couple of (good cranking) places. That gave me the confidence to dedicate the rest of my practice to that."



>>>



Now after reading this, it once again gets me to thinking about tournament competition in general, and how the two organizations (FLW and BASS) approach their tournaments.



In one, there is a pre-defined practice time for all anglers. There is also an off-limits time, so that no one has advantage. And finally, they have (for the first time) put rules into place so that anglers have to use their knowledge, experience and angling ability to find and catch fish. No information sharing, that is not readily available to everyone. In addition, they allow any type of sponsorship/advertising to be used by the anglers, that best supports the needs of the angler (of course within accepted reason).



The other allows as much practice as you can afford. There is no off-limits. You can gain any type of advantage that you deem necessary, in relation to hiring guides, information gathering, and so forth. If you are fortunate enough to make the

 

[TOMMY RICH]

Y'a know Tex...It's a shame when anytime "money" is involved......It seems to "taint" everything! Even fishing!

 

[Rob LaMoy]

Tex, FLW has come to grips with what BASS is trying to control but can't. You can put in place all the rules you want. Somebody is GOING to get info on the lake. You just can't police the field. Then those who do adhere to the rules suffer. So it's open game, but it's open game to EVERYONE, so in that respect, it's fair. Now as for the guy who followed the other anglers so he could win, he's a low life and has NO place in tourneys. He obviously cannot find his own fish. If I were the tourney director and had ANY grounds at all to do so, I would have DQ'd him for unsportsmanlike conduct. If I had been one of the Everstart finalists, I would have winged a 1 oz jig off his boat or head a few times until he left.

 

[Bill McElroy]

Professional fishing would not be anywhere near as big as it is today if it were not for the FLW coming along and kicking BASS's peverbial hiney.....they forced BASS to up the ante when BASS had no intention of doing so when they were the "monopoly"....competition is good for EVERYBODY!

The FLW has some pretty stringent (albeit stupid) rules, but that's the way it is in their camp......they offer the exclusivity of advertising to their sponsors to justify the price they charge to be a "sponsor".....and there's other benefits that they receive inside each Walmart store that also play into it. BASS has more to offer the angler's as far as promoting their sponsors on stage,...but they also don't have near the payouts (amounts OR depth of field who get paid) and they're in this constant state of flux where they think they can change certain rules in mid-season and that does NOT sit well with the anglers!! Both trails have their virtues and both have their faults,...but we need BOTH trails to keep this sport moving in the right direction. On the flip side though,..i see more anglers picking sides next year based on their boat/motor sponsors....and even fewer fishing both trails....it's just getting way too expensive!!(the current gas price situation makes it even worse!!) The FLW is going to raise their entry fees and increase the field next year too.....increase the field to 225 boats and the entry fee will be $3000/event!!...BUT, they'll also pay down to 50th place and that person gets 10grand!! The payouts in the FLW are a LOT better than BASS....that will be a deciding factor too for a lot of the current angler's!

Times are tough all over,...after talking to so many of them over the past 2 years...it's a VERY HARD way to make a living...many of them have several maxed out CC's and are on the verge of bankruptcy...be glad you're working and have a steady paycheck..even if it means you can only fish on weekends. It's not as glamorous of a lifestyle as you'd like to think...that sport supports 10-12pros very comfortably,..the rest are sweatin' bullets!! Been there,...see it,..hear it,..don't want to live it!!



Carry on!!

Mac

 

[Texas Transplant]

I hear you both. I fully realize that there are a small handfull of 'pro's' that are truly making it. Heard and read the stories of the guy's that camp out, fish for their dinner, share expenses, etc. It's got to be a tough life.



Let's not forget that Red Man and other tourneys have also pushed BASS in the past. Not as much as the FLW has, but pushed none the less.



$3,000.00 for an entry fee is pretty steep. However, paying to 50 places is a nice deal.



I'm not as sure as you are about FLW being 'a driving force' in making Bass fishing bigger. The natural evolution of the sport and the various trails has done quite a bit. Also, BASS has tried some other things. Some work, others don't.



One really big difference, that has not been mentioned, is that the changes that BASS has put in (E50 tournament, less anglers and their pay rates), have been driven in large part by the anglers themselves.



I'm in agreement that BASS did a poor job in changing the rules in mid-stream this year. It was a mistake. However, it was also a mistake as they were written. It corrected some problems that the system had in it, but caused some people to get treated unfairly. No winners.



I'm not necessairly in agreement that the rules that FLW has about prefishing, information, etc. make it a level playing field. If FLW were the only tournament circuit, then from event to event (covering a time period), everyone would have the same opportunity at practice. However, as stated, many of the anglers hold down other jobs, and also some of them fish other circuits (namely BASS), which they need to participate in.



That means, that smaller number of anglers on FLW, that have not qualified for BASS, and do not have another job they must work, have the ability to spend as much time as needed on the 'next' lake.



My hope is that with Ray Scott now back with BASS (at least in some capacity), that he will have the forum and base to suggest and help bring about change.



Tex

 

[Mark Weichold]

Mac, I have to disagree with you even though I love you and do not know you, cept for this forum. I was just going to post about this on our local forum here in California.



Look at who is CONSISTENTLY fishing the tour versus FLW!!



The big name guys who we saw growing up, Klein, Van Damn, Martin, Denny, Nixon, CLunn etc. and the top new faces, Reese, Martens Iconelli etc.



I am sorry but FLW has alot of the new upcoming folks and not the stars that the average Joe has heard of!! While BASS put he Busch patch to a test the FLW sponser thing has driven away top notch anglers with the where this on stage or else!!!



My two cents!! BASS is and always will be number one even without Ranger, Which in my opinion was the one and only Huge mistake they made.



Now Bill keep makin those Scales and Tales for me to download and send to not real BAss folks. Why it hooks un to our sport!!





Mark

 

[Bill McElroy]

Mark,....Thanks for the compliment...rest assured I'll keep drawing S&T as long as I can hold a pen! As far as the FLW/BASS debate,..I'm not totally sold on either trail,...as I mentioned, there's pro's and con's for both sides. Also, keep in mind, the names you mentioned, all got their start with BASS and there's a great deal of loyalty among those veteran pro's,...PLUS,..they all get their entry fees paid by one or more of their "sponsors" and those sponsors have every right to specify which trail they'll pay for!!(and they DO!!) LOL.. Nixon by the way, fishes a LOT of the FLW's due to his Stratos/Evinrude affiliation.(FLW sponsors) KVD fished both trails up until Chevy dropped their Pro Staff, thus eliminating his only dual BASS/FLW sponsor. Clunn still fishes FLW's too and so does Iaconelli,..(I was paired with him on Beaver Lk in '03). Klein fished them last year as well. So there are a LOT of big name Pro's that still fish the FLW,...i.e. Bernie Shultz, Dan Morehead, Guido and Dion Hibdon, and Takahiro Omori. Those folks are doing it strictly for the $$,...100G's for a 1st place finish is BIG!! BASS was forced to raise their payout due to the FLW taking the lead in that category. You are also right in the fact that the FLW also draws a lot of newcombers into the sport and there's a reason why,...if you do well and handle yourself professionally, the FLW will make every effort to get you a sponsorship deal with one of their sponsors...including a boat and paid entry fees...that's a HUGE plus for a newcomber!! BASS will not provide anything like that for a rookie,...you're on your own with them, but that's why they also let you promote anything and anyone. That's cool!! So it's not really a matter of agreeing with me on which tour is "best",...it's knowing and agreeing that we have ALL benefited from having 2 major tours and we will continue to derive benefits as long as they both survive! Rules can suck,..but healthy competition is good!! IMO!!



Mac



BTW-I think BASS was much better BEFORE ESPN bought them.

They've made a lot of bone head moves in the past 3 years and there's a LOT of very angry Pro's out there right now....BASS better get their act together in a hurry!

 

[gone bye bye]

I know ONE bonehead move they made.....



Mini

 

[Bill McElroy]

LOL....One of SEVERAL!!! LOL

 

[Texas Transplant]

LOL! at Mini/Mac.



RE: Mac - Your comment on BASS ESPN purchase and quality.



Once Ray was not the CEO/Decision Maker, there were several moves that were made that were not good. Racing bass boats at tournaments. UGH.



On another note, one I would add is:



I think that Ranger was better before Jacobs bought it.



To paraphrase a politician (boy - I can't believe I said that) 'Irwin Jacobs is no Forrest Wood'. Irwin may have the money to do what he's done (and will do in the future), but I will always think that Ranger would be better off with Forrest still running it.



Tex

 

[Bill McElroy]

Surprisingly enough Irwin is very "hands off" when it comes to Ranger Mgt,....He let's Randy Hopper and Co. do their own thing when it comes to design and mfgrg!! A lot of people had that same concern when Forrest sold it to Genmar,....but after talking with Randy at length (very recently) on several occasions,...I'm convinced that he still calls his own shots. He just has to have "budgetary" issues approved by Genmar,...but the day to day operations and overall "Ranger way of doing things" is/was largely unaffected by the sale. Forrest even required it in the sale contract that NOBODY could be laid off or fired when the sale went through and still to this day...in 36 years of building boats,...Forrest has never had to lay anybody off!! I was at the Open house they had a month ago and Forrest had a Q&A session that was absolutely AWESOME!!! He told the whole "Ranger story" and even my wife (who couldn't tell you a bow from a stern) was fascinated by the whole deal.....he's a great story teller and what a great man he is...a true american success story!!

 

[Staci Matheis]

See, BJ.....

This is what it's all about.....

SELLING BOATS!!

 

[Bill McElroy]

and the BETTER they are,..the EASIER they are to sell,..at ANY price!!

 

[Texas Transplant]

Mac,



Thanks for the inside scoop on Ranger. Glad to hear the news. After all, regardless of some of his decisions, you generally don't get rich making stupid decisions.



Tex

 

[Bill McElroy]

No problem Tex,...



The plant tour was extremely interesting too...very impressive bunch of people working there!! Very compatent, dedicated and quality concious! If you or anybody else is ever in the Flippin', AR. area,..MAKE the time to go take a tour,....it's unreal!! Once you see how a bass boat is actually built, it really opens one's eyes as to what a huge difference all the "little" things make when they come together in the end product,...their employee's overall attitudes and work ethics are amazing as well,....just imagine if those same beliefs and practices were common "nation wide" vs. "Flippin wide"..LOL....We'd rule the freakin' world!!!!

 

[Texas Transplant]

I have not visited the factory 'officially' before, but used to call on clients there in Flippin back in the 80's when Forrest still did the day to day management. Very interesting town, and I would tend to agree with you completely. The work ethic (both in amount and quality) that comes from Flippin - Arkansas - is nothing short of outstanding.



Tex

 

[Rob LaMoy]

I think Mackrelroy is dead on with the FLW. For all the complaining people do, the FLW has brought our sport onto the mainstage and gotten it the exposure it deserves. Irwin has been instrumental in that. Maybe people don't like his tactics, fine, then don't fish his tourneys. I for one, could not have gotten my start as soon as I did had it not been for the format and availability of entry into the FLW tourneys. They truly make it a TON easier for young guys to get their start.

Yes, many big guns and legends have stacked their claim as to which series they ultimately support, but those guys ARE getting older and can't fish forever. Every 10 years or so, there is a generational "turnover" in the "big" names of fishing. You had Roland, Bill Dance, Jimmy, Clunn etc. Well....Clunn will forever be a threat as long as he can hold a rod!

Then there was Yelas, KVD, Fritts, etc.

Now it's Iaconelli, Fisher, Dudley, Lefebre, Strader, Sappington. These names in 10 years from now WILL BE the big guns. I only hope I can be somewhere in that mix.



And though the classic brought more back door money to Mike than the Jacob's cup did to Dudley, remember the FLW is still in it's "infancy" and continuing to grow each year. As it's sponsors grow and it's exposure grows, so will the intangible benefits of being AOY or Champion of the FLW or Everstart series, besides the substantially higher payout.

 

[Mark Weichold]

Where I want to agree with you Rob and Mac I just cannot, Bassfishing is not a real easy to sell television show to begin with. The FLW's show is horrible, the average Joe (unlike you or I) does not want to sit and watch guys sitting on the deck of a boat in a Wal-Mart and do the roundhouse weigh-in. At least the BAss Tour shows more on the water action to build some interest towards the weigh-in on television. It is a hard sell either way, and the duct tape over sponsers is well YUCK!!



All this trying to compare to and be like Nascar is silly, it is Fishing period!! Bass Fishing is a addiction, You either are way into it or could really care less there is not a lot of fence sitting and ten years from now in my humble opinion BASS will still be the king!!



Let's agree to disagree because we love them little Green monsters!!



Mark

 

[Staci Matheis]

I don't know much about the two organizations.....

But.....



I'm with Mark.

The round-a-bout weigh-in with little on-the-water time is some of the most boring television I've ever not watched.

 

[Rob LaMoy]

Oh, I won't dispute that. The FLW TV show leaves a lot to be desired. But I also think that BASS's show has also gone down hill since ESPN got involved.

I'm not arguing about who's show is better. I'm just saying that the FLW was instrumental in bringing professional bass fishing to where it is today. Had it not been for the competition and added exposure, BASS would still have a stronghold on tourney fishing, and entries would still be too high, and payouts too low. And for those of us wanting our shot, there would be no way less than waiting it out for older guys to retire.

 

[gone bye bye]

The entries are too high AND the payouts are still too low.



Mini

 

[Rob LaMoy]

Well yes! But now BASS's payouts ARE going up to compete with FLW events. But now so are the entries. I'm sure if left unchecked the entries would have continued increasing without the payouts going up. I remember when a tourney win meant $40k and that was a good day.

I will say this, aside from the fact that I want one, this whole winning a boat deal stinks. For me it would be great....the first time. But say you have somebody like Macaroni there with a loaded 520. What's he going to do with a cert for a 519? Sell it, and at less then he had to claim for it on taxes. At least in the FLW it's a check. BASS still does their Triton right?

Plus for the tourneys where it's an actual boat, you have to sell it before you leave or make arrangements to get it towed to your home to sell it. But anyway....I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

 

[Mark Weichold]

Rob,



BASS is having their open this month on our Famed California Delta (look for huge weights) I will forward to the site here the payback. It is the best in the business for a Pro-Am format. I also wish that BASS did not go away from the Pro on Pro draw that was a real test of angler mind set and handling adversity!! Ya gotta admit that!!



We have a ton of, I got back seated crap posted and talked about out here on the left coast. (Remember am the Pro is fishing for his life and or living in some instances) this is not a guide trip!! But put Klein and say Davis drawn toghether and film that compitetion!!! WHEW!!



Take Care,



P.S. it has been a terrible year for me this year, I finally placed a third for a check and a plaque last weekend out of a friends boat not my Nitro OUCH!! HAR



Mark

 

[Bruce Freeman]

I had the pleasure of attending the weigh ins for the FLW (Clewistown) and BASS (Harris Chain) While I was in Fla this year and from an unbiased opinion (Don't have cable) have never been or seen either before. I liked the set up out side for the FLW better. The interaction with the sponsor area was more like a NHRA event. A total sponsor area with reps and games and samplel's vs a Triton boat show at the BASS event. Now I thought the weigh in for the FLW was to much game show and not enough guts a details Thats where the BASS shined. More for tv but less for spectators...

BF

 

[Bill McElroy]

I totally agree with you Mark,..BASS's TV show is 10x better than the FLW's,.....but I don't watch either one very often,...my spare time is at a premium and when i have some,..I'd rather be fishing or launching arrows than watching TV!!..LOL



Also on a side note,..Winning the BMC does not give you a free ticket to fame and fortune in this sport,...common sense and good business advice will get it done..."greed will lead to one's demise!!"..take a look at the 2004 Yamaha and Ranger websites and see who's "missing" from their pro-staffs' now!! (Don't bite the hand that feeds you!!!)