Oil prices

[Michael Snow]

I THINK it was here (but a search didn't find it) where I talked about Quicksilver Prem+ oil prices. Academy and Bass Pro DID have them for 8.99/gallon in the Dallas area. I was at Bass Pro saturday and it's 9.99 now. Still, a big difference from what academy in Louisianna(I think) was charging. Anyway, the person asked if I was sure on the 8.99, so I thought I'd post a follow-up.

 

[Steven Atwell]

Jeez, Merc must get their oil from Iraqi oil fields................sa

 

[bob wateski]

If you are a member of a bass club or just know a bunch of guys that have boats, and need oil, contact one of the oil co. near you and see if you can buy bulk.



The bass club that I used to belong to does this every year. They buy 3 or 4 55 gal drums and the guys split the cost. It has been running about $5.00 per gal, doing it that way. You can get tcw3 and oil is oil is oil. There are only so many refineries in the country and all different co. do is have their label put on the outside.



Check it out and it might save you some money. I would buy 20 to 30 gal at a time and that would last for a year or so.



bob

 

[Michael Snow]

"oil is oil is oil"? Bob, you can gamble on what you put in your motor to lubricate it. For me, it's Quicksilver's Optimax oil. No Penzoil or Wally-world special for my baby. Price a new powerhead and see if that couple of bucks saving is worth it. My mechanic tells me that oil isn't all the same, nor is gas. I'll trust him.

 

[Adam Murray]

Ooooohhh!! Can't wait for Scott to jump in on this one...I'm outta here!

 

[Staci Matheis]

Yeah, Adam..... I saw it yesterday but decided that I was just gonna keep my mouth shut this time.....



For whatever it's worth, Bob, I agree with you.....



me!

 

[stan jones]

the best thing to do is read a good consumer report on oils. not one written by one of the oil brands. some times they run one in bass masters. it may surprise some of you. and yes i know people who run the cheapest tcw3 oil they can find and never have a problem. i used to myself. there is some places i try to save money and some places i don't. the article i read which was a few years ago stated, if you want to try to use the best oil formula you can use for your outboard motor use OMC oil. and this is not my opinion. but what i read in bassmaster mag. i use it in my mercs. also other than the color you would have to have a lab to tell if you used the wrong brand in your motor to void your warrentee. and i was told that by a buisness that does warrentee work for three different manufactures. just passing on info. thanks stan

 

[Michael Snow]

8.99 for Prem, 9.99 for prem plus (just checked tonight).



If you want a consumer report, I think Scott would be the best, since we all trust him. Here's the test, please let me know the outcome.



Scott, please take 1 quart of premium plus quicksilver oil and cook it at 600 degrees for 30 minutes. Now, take 1 quart of your el-cheapo oil and cook it at 600 degrees for 30 minutes.



Now, this will tell you if oil is oil is oil.... do they taste the same?

 

[Rich Stern]

They were clearing out Pennzoil Premium Plus Synthetic Blend at the local Wal-Mart last week. $5.75/gallon. My Polaris likes it.



I usually buy a jug or two of the Quicksilver for my Merc during the BPS spring sale. $10 is my spending limit for, ehem, "high end" oil. Yes, peace of mind is worth a little more, but not twice or three times the price.



Mike, I probably wouldn't chance low-end oil in an Optimax either, since it runs a very thin margin for lubrication error. But lots of folks have blown up an Optimax while feeding it $20/gallon oil.



I figure it works something like this:



You buy a $6 jug of Exxon TCW3, you are getting about $4 worth of product, and about $2 worth of marketing and profit margin.



You buy a $16 jug of Quicksilver, you are getting about $5 worth of product, and about $11 worth of marketing and profit margin. Yes, there are additional ingredients in the mix, and it costs a little more to manufacture, but mostly, Mercury (and Yamaha, and Bombardier) have you by the psychological short-ones and they know it.

 

[Staci Matheis]

"Psychological short-ones"!

Can you say THAT in the chat room? :^)



Mike, everyone knows I don't cook! If it can't be microwaved or brought in pre-cooked, it doesn't get eaten at my place!

 

[Dan J.]

I wish you guys could visually look at the differences in a blown outboard powerhead when disassembled. It sounds like some of you will eventually get the chance, running the cheap stuff. That's job security for marine tech's. I've seen dozens of blown powerheads from numerous mfg.'s and you are only fooling yourself if you think it's all the same stuff with different marketing. Per engine mfg., operating heat ranges differ as well as rod and piston composition/fit, piston and componant build tolerance...the list is quite lengthy. These may seem minor or of no consequence until you put them in motion at sustained operating ranges of 5500 rpm's. or greater. Comparing to an automotive engine that on average sustains 2500 rpm's is another "apples to oranges" comparison in totally different environments. The amount of filtration and titration as well as additives make a dramatic difference in the quality and performance of a particular oil. I've seen these differences make a believer out of so many people writing checks for thousands of dollars in engine repairs after saving tens of dollars feeding their motor cheap oil. Something as simple as the diameter of an injector orifice will impact the performance of oil heavily laden with impurities that could have been removed through additional processing. That is just one part of the 1600-1700 making up an average powerhead. I'm not trying to ignite a debate, just passing on observations seen in the past 18 years in this field. (The cheaper the oil, the more sludge and debris left behind.)

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

Dan,



What is titration? Sounds like what my wife has me on.



TOXIC

 

[Dan J.]

In a nutshell, it's keeping/enhancing the properties you want to keep while eliminating or breaking down others of little use or actually harmful. (Fancy filtering at the compound level.) It's commonly used in alcohol processing as well as others.

 

[Marke Cicero]

I'm with Dan.

 

[Michael Snow]

Other difference in 2 and 4 strokes is that there's no manual filtering process (oil filter), and the contaminants left behind in a 2 stroke are burned possibly into place.



And I don't know where Dan is quoting numbers from on 1600-1700 for a powerhead.



Since I just went through a blown powerhead, here's how it breaks down. On my 1999 225 Optimax, the issue was a blown head gasket, not any failure of the DFI system. Dealer price for a remanufactured powerhead is $3200 (from Merc), before the dealership adds markup. That includes the powerhead only; fuel system, ignition system, wiring, etc aren't part of the powerhead. That's 10 hours of labor to undress the old powerhead and dress the new one. Then there's a core charge of $800 (refundable based upon condition of returned powerhead).



So, in my situation, it would have been close to $5000. It ran me just over $700 (labor, one plug, and shop materials) because Mercury stepped up to the plate and covered the powerhead.

 

[Rich Stern]

Dan, I don't mind a little honest debate. This topic has fascinated me for years.



I respect your experience and don't doubt that it supports your argument. But I didn't say it's the same stuff with different marketing. I said it's slightly different stuff with different marketing.



Why is it that Merc leaves pro representives like yourself and retailers (and consumers) without the extensive field and lab data they have likely accumulated on this topic over the years? Because the perception already in place serves them well?



Why is it that Exxon, Chevron, Texaco et. al., don't package high-end TCW3 under their own labels? Their petroleum engineers should know enough about TCW3 to make a "high-end" version of their TCW3. Certainly, their brand managers would love to get that type of profit margin. Could it be that they don't have the required marketing position that a motor OEM like Merc has to command a 250% pricing premium over competitors? The fact that the motor says "Merc" on the side and the oil says "Merc" on the label is one of those premium profit opportunities that marketers love so well.



I trust capitalism. People involved in commerce behave in highly predictable ways. I trust that Brunswick Corporation does everything it legally and ethically should to maximize the bottom line. If I was the brand manager for Quicksilver, I would do it exactly the same way.



Is a Quicksilver branded lubricant the best possible product you can buy for your motor? Perhaps it is. And I would encourage someone to use it if they can afford it and it makes them feel better about the protection they receive. I have already admitted that my own behavior suggests it's worth a 66% premium over cheap stuff, at least to me. For some, it's worth $16 or even $20/gallon.



I don't have a problem believing Quicksilver is a better product. But I don't believe it's the only good product, and I do believe it is overpriced.

 

[Michael Snow]

Exxon does make superflo in a TCW-III. Pennzoil makes both a premium and a premium plus (synthetic blend). Pennzoil has been specifically recommended against (by name) by my mechanic.

 

[Rich Stern]

Exxon Superflow is $6.99/gallon in this part of the world. Penzoil Premium is usually about $8.99, and Premium Plus about $10.99. My point was that none of these companies attempt to market a $15-$20/gallon competitor to Merc/Yama/Bomb super premium brands.

 

[Staci Matheis]

"I trust capitalism"?

Personally, I preferred "psychological short-ones"!



:^)

 

[Dan J.]

Rich - During my first year of college I worked for the American Oil Company, Wood River, IL, under Mr. Henry McCandless, Vice President. During that time (1986-87) I found out that the American Oil Co. manufactured under liscense almost a full fifth of the nation's petroleum products under literally a thousand or more names. The basic breakdown was the amount of filtering, processing and additives per label, cheaper grades getting less of the aforementioned. I am confident that the remaining four fifths are processed much similarly by their respective competitive mfg's. (Many also located in Wood River, IL)



Extremely large batches of two stroke oil were refined and sold as thus under different labels. Many companies purchased "raw stock" products which were additionally processed at their own facilities or by Amoco to their specifications, adding cost and margin to the finished product.



Mercury is one company as such, producing a higher than standard product through additional processing. Depending upon grade, their oil burns more thoroughly through two strokes than lesser quality oils. The only way to prove it is to measure the carbon build up in the cylinder heads and meter the lubricative properties left for performance. Viscosity being one such measure.



I have seen inside of at least 30 (probably more) blown powerheads by various mfg's hanging out at the Merc, OMC and Yamaha support trailers during B.A.S.S. events I have fished these past years. Those guys have become very good friends, helping myself many times and showing me just how fortunate we were to have them. It also gave me numerous opportunities to see how fast a new motor will pop on a diet of cheap oil. Freshly blown, some looked like hot tar splattered accross the dome.



I commented only to help those without experience understand some of the differences in cost and quality between bulk standard processing and individual, generally smaller batch with higher controls, specialty blends. It is my sole opinion and worth every bit of the paper it's written on! (LOL!)



Mike Snow - Microfiche a 3 litre Opti and start counting! LOL! I was "guesstimating".

 

[Staci Matheis]

Dan, wouldn't you suppose that the blown powerheads on display by the manufacturers were chosen specifically to represent their point of view and not simply chosen at random?

 

[James D.]

I'm stayin with the quicksilver prem + for my rig as a gallon of oil goes a long long ways on my 115hp. I don't know for sure all the differences, but I do know that my prevous motor (25hp evinrude 77') ran a lot better on quicksilver than it did on the omc branded oil. At the time, i didn't know that the quicksilver was mercs oil. It was very noticeable. If I had an optimax, or vmax, or any other kind of max, I would run what is recommended without question. I think buying in bulk is smart if you intend to use a lot during a season and it is the same stuff. I'm with Dan to on this one.



jd

 

[Bob G.]

I also agree with Dan. Since I only use 4 gallons per season, I stick with Quicksilver/Merc premium plus. I drive a full size truck and run a carburated 150hp XR6 on the boat, so $60 to $80 per season for oil is a small cost in comparison to the overall scheme of my hobbies!



Bob G.

 

[Michael Snow]

Bob, at 15-20 bucks per gallon, you're getting raped. $10 at Bass Pro or Academy in Dallas. I realize that's a pretty big drive for you .

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

$18 for a gallon of Mercury "Priemum" oil at the marina. And that's with my discount (they are a sponsor). Worth every penny also!!



TOXIC

 

[Bob G.]

Mike,



Welcome to Vermont, where price raping is legal!!! I usually buy my oil at a local Westmarine when it is on sale. The nearest Bass Pro or Academy is too many tanks of gas to get there.



Bob G.

 

[Dan J.]

Scott - Most of the blown powerheads I've seen have been within hours of popping. They were ran by fellow competitors, most with minimal hrs. on them, representing a broad range of manufacturers. Not a single one was a factory contolled experiment, although I'm sure they all probably do such testing to some extent. (Sorry to take so long to reply. Our Classic was this past weekend.)

 

[Michael Snow]

Yes, a strong word. 50-100% more than other places is a bit odd.