More Terrorism in London

[Larry Harp]

News reports coming in about 3 more London subway bombings and a possible London bus bomb as well. Obvious what these low lifes are trying to achieve.



At the risk of sounding like a racist bigot I'm going to make a comment. I keep hearing about how the terrorist are not "typical" Moslems and the average Moslem is as disgusted by the terrorism as the rest of the world. Then I say why doesn't the Moslem community of the world make some attempt do something about it? These criminals are pouring out of every Moslem country yet the governments and the clergy of these countries do nothing to stop it. If I see a crime being commited and do nothing to stop or report it, am I not just as guilty as the perpertrator? The governments of the Middle East have the capabilities to infiltrate the terrorist cell and cause real damage...why don't they?



Harpo





Harpo

 

[Bill McElroy]

totally agree,....this terrorism crap is really starting to piss me off......:angry::angry:

 

[TOMMY RICH]

Get rid of every one of these SOB's outta' the US before it happens here again!

Ship em' OUT!

The bastages is really making it harder for us not to discriminate...which may be what they want:angry:

Also..CLOSE OUR BORDERS! PERIOD!:angry:

 

[Rob LaMoy]

OK, so I'm a right wing extremist....NUKE 'EM ALL!!!!! Then in a 100,000 years or so, we'll have us a really nice glass parking lot to park our tanks and choppers on.



My question is, why couldn't it have been France or Germany????

 

[Dan J.]

Without getting into a race/religion debate, I'd like to submit this exchange of conversation sent to me by a friend:



"Allah or Jesus? by Rick Mathes



Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.



I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.



The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.



After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.



When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked,



"Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"



There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"



I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"



The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar.



He sheepishly replied, "Yes."



I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"



The Imam was speechless.



I continued, "I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"



You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic, Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.



I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized.



Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts.



This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well-known leader in prison ministry."



*only original message spacing edited

 

[Bill McElroy]

Rob,....France and Germany don't vocally or outwardly condemn terrorism.....as far as the extremists are concerned,..if they don't condemn it,..then they AGREE with it!!

 

[Larry Harp]

Dan, I hate to do this to you but the piece you posted has been around the e-mail circuit for a while now. Do a Google on Rick Mathes and you'll find some interesting stuff. Below is a link for just one.



Harpo
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

 

[JEFF WHITE]

not to sound sympathetic to there cause,but can you honestly tell the diffrence between a terrorist and a muslem?or an iraqui,or a saudi?honestly no one can,and you never will be able to.they look,and act just like the guy next to you except he has a bomb strapped to him/herself.there theory is the more infidels(us for those not in the know) they take out,allah promises them 20 virgins in there version of heaven.to say this guy is a terrorist and this one isnt is hard to say.



did anyone see the cnn/cnbc brodcast where we bombed a hospital?did they show the soviet made tank inside it shelling our people,did they also show any wounded people out of this hospital,nope! did anyone see the good things we are doing over there for these people,honestly,anything good,like all the medical care,fresh water,food,and other things we are doing for these people that there own goverment wasnt doing.a man who has a donkey is considered middle class in iraq,so does this give you a clue to there economic situation.



these people who you call terrorist are nothing more than cowards,but it is on the same token as the some of the cults here,but the ones here dont use explosives and guns to get there point across to others.but our constitution grants us freedom of religion to worship whatever religion you please and not be persecuted for it,but it still happens.



we put these kids,our troops in a combat situation,there emotions go from one extreme to the other in no time.some can cope with it,some loose it,please dont try to tell them you know how it is,you honestly dont know,and wont know unless you were there.my friend just returned from 16 months over there,we have been talking about it just about every day he isnt working,and the stuff that is going on you would never know or believe.he sent me pictures back and showed me pictures of things that you couldnt believe that this is going on over there.



people have to realize terrorist are nothing more than cowards,but in the same token they are also like us in a way,how many of you get offended when someone talks about your religion,being catholic,or methodist,baptist,or whatever.dont you get a little upset?well,the same goes for these people,except they use explosives and guns to get there point across.



sorry about the long winded post,but when you see our troops returning,pleae dont bother them asking a lot of questions about being overseas,let them talk at there own pace about it,please listen to them,dont say you know how it is,just listen to them,they have a lit of emotions still bottled up inside they need to get out with time.just sit and listen to them.take them fishing or just out.but the main thing is listen to them.



also support our troops over there and the ones coming home also.please dont try to buy them a beer on flights,or in the terminals waiting for there flights,they havent had any alchohol over there,so buy them a soda,or water,or ice tea.please be paitent with the combat troops,they have seen the most intense stuff.bottle rockets are like rpg's.so if they dont want to go to firewoors displays,dont force them,please.



ive said enough.

 

[TOMMY RICH]

I heard every "towel head" hates Dale Earnhardt and Jesus anyway:lol:

 

[TrepMan]

I still can't believe in the US we can't "profile" at security points. Were any of the 9/11, shoe bomber, earlier World Trade center bombers and other terrorists white old ladies? Black people? Native American?? NOPE!! Then WHY is my Mom, a early 60 yearold white lady being hand wanded on her underwire bra??



I know, I know, its the current wave or politicaly correctness. And I do understand we don't want to go to the extremes folks saw during WWII after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and round up all asian looking folks. But we have to have the ability to focus on the look/ethicity of the specific terrorists at each time.



Harpo - While I agree to some extent on the idea of LEVELING some of these countries to the ground, there is the question of innocents. BUT targeted cities like we did in Japan in WWII could be very effected.



The problem with this whole "religeous" terrorist war we are in is there is not a single Country to target, as seen by British Citizens bombing their fellow citizens.

 

[JEFF WHITE]

then you get the protesters such as the aclu,greenpeace and all the other protesters out in full force making us out to look bad,and the geneva convention prohibits us from using nukes on anyone.the united nations also prohibits us using them also.just think,you drop a nuke on 1 city,say falluja,and you kill say 10 terrorist,but kill over 100,000 inocent men,women and children,now who is the terrorist.you just cant kill them all and let allah sort them out.that is not right.you cant keep killing the children and inocent people off due to a few bad ones.



you cant profile any one race for being terrorist,anyone remember cat stevens the singer,he switched to muslem religion,was banned from england because of it,and he looks white!is he a terrorist?who knows!terrorism comes in many colors.so to single out one race due to a few people is not right,and is considered raciasm.

 

[Dan J.]

Harpo - Thanks for the Snopes! Looks like the fella's title and organization has been swapped around. The dialogue that actually took place was what impressed me most. It's kinda scary to have that degree of violent ideology professed openly.

 

[Edward Lea.]

If you check most of the hotspots in the world you will find a muslim nation involved in one way or another. Can't seem to get along with the neighbors can they.

 

[Barry Dufour]

I was stationed in England in the early 70's. They are a quiet people, but don't get them mad like in WWII. It may take a couple of more bombings but they will get even. We are at war people, don't forget. They attacked our shores and killed innocent people. We need to be aware that they will try anything. I'm afraid that they will attack us again and then hopefully we will wake up and take them out.

Barry VietNam era Veteran.

 

[Larry Harp]

Trep, I think you've got me confused with somebody else, I never suggested leveling anything. First of all who would you bomb? The first London subway bombers were Brit citizens. Tim McVie was from Michigan....LOOK OUT NEELEY!!

I believe that the diplomatic and economic pressure of the U.S. and the E.U. and the Pacific Rim could, if the right leadership came along persuade the Arabic and Islamic countries to see that it is in their best intrest to get in the fight against these scumbags. They have the looks, the money, and the knowledge. They just don't have the motovation. The Islamic clerics put out a death warrant on Salmond Rusdie (sp?) for writing a book they didn't agree with but they can't condem what going on now??

Another thing I just don't get..... a bunch of Saudis fly airliners into our buildings and kill thousands and we attack Afganistan and Iraq and the president goes to Saudi Arabia and hugs and kisses the King over there. How about Bush grabbing old King Fisal by the short hairs and saying "You bring me Osama's head on a platter in 72 hours or I'll bring down this little camel ranch you call a government and gas will be back to 29.9 in Oklahoma City next week." I'm sure Israel would be there to help and who would stop us??? Syria?? Iran??? cannon fodder for our boys. Of course that will never happen, but something like it should.



Harpo

 

[Edward Lea.]

Go Harpo........ walk tall and carry a big stick. It has been a real thorn in my side why we cannot infiltrate the terrorists org's. We tie our intelligent units hands and everyone wants the country protected. As soon as the government starts to talk about tightening security in New York on the subway system some left wing group starts yelling about infringing on their rights to not be searched. But they are ready to jump up and yell when we take a hit that the government isn't doing enought to protect the country. If you are the top guy you cannot win.



That is worth repeating "If you are the top guy you cannot win".



The only way to win this war is for the whole world to get invovled. You are also going to have to play by their rules, anything goes. That is their rules not ours but they picked them when they flew ino the trade center. It sucks but you gotta get dirty if you want to get to the SOB's. Their mantra, Join them or they will kill you, Well that's got to go both ways. I am not saying bomb people out of existence but the people living with them need to step up, come into the 21st century, and help irradicate the SOB's.



Oh yeah and isn't it true that the worlds countries that went through the 60's are much easier to get along with. Seems a decade of Peace, Love, Rock n Roll, and Bra burning 60's culture would do most of these synched up A-holes a world of good. I sure liked it.

 

[Rich Stern]

[soap box]

Harpo, one need look no farther than Saudi Arabia to understand why Muslims will not rise to the occassion.



Are you familiar with how Saudi Arabia plays the game?



They say nice, soothing things to us (their biggest customer), but internally, in Arabic, they say very nasty things about us to their own people.



Contrast India with Saudi Arabia. India is relatively poor, yet, through tremendous spending and effort, Indians are among the most educated people in the world. There are many Indians abroad, holding professional positions, owning businesses and attending schools of higher learning. How many Saudi's do you hear of in that situation? Saudi Arabia is enormously wealthy, thanks to oil revenue, and could easily accomplish a similar feat. But the Saudi ruling class, in a classic case of the haves vs. the have nots, has zero interest in educating their population. Keeping the the Saudi people dumb and angry at the United States, for reasons real or imagined, keeps the people from rebelling against their real oppressors, the Saudi ruling class. And, sadly, religion is a useful tool along these lines. When loyalty to the king runs thin, you can always count on a good deity to scare people into submission.



The best way to kill a snake is to cut off it's head.

[/soap box]

 

[Larry Harp]

Imagine there's no heaven,

It's easy if you try,

No hell below us,

Above us only sky,

Imagine all the people

living for today...



Imagine there's no countries,

It isnt hard to do,

Nothing to kill or die for,

No religion too,

Imagine all the people

living life in peace...



Imagine no possesions,

I wonder if you can,

No need for greed or hunger,

A brotherhood of man,

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world...



You may say Im a dreamer,

but Im not the only one,

I hope some day you'll join us,

And the world will live as one.

 

[JR F]

It Is a dangerious world now for everyone......

 

[Bill McElroy]

Well......I think we have an answer!! We need another Gen. Pershing!!

Mac

 

[Rob LaMoy]

I have a new hero!!!!

 

[Tony Payne]

I really hate to do this....



http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm



now... if it were that simple to 'elimiate extremism'... don't you think it would have been done already?



You can not appeal to the sensibilities of a mad man...
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm

 

[Larry Harp]

IMHO, if we allow the barbarians to turn us into barbarians... then they have won the war. Once we give up our civil liberites and become a closed socioty...they they have won the war. If we become scared and suspisious of our own citizens because they disagree with us...then they have won the war. Once we allow our free press to become censored because we are afraid of what they might say....then they have won the war.



That is the ultimate goal of the terrorist



Harpo

 

[Dan J.]

Harpo - When a suicide bomber straps on his WMD in the morning, do you think that your referenced ideals are what's going through his, many times well-educated, mind?



They're hatred trumps our lofty idealisms every time. We are not barbarians. We just believe in self-preservation.



*edit sp

 

[Larry Harp]

I stand by what I say...Once we stop being Americans and doing what America stands for they have won. We have many ways to combat this scourge without resorting to their level.



BTW, I don't consider the Bill of Rights as "lofty idealism". I don't consider Americans standing together to fight as one whether they be Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservitave, Baptist or Atheist as "lofty idealism".



Harpo

 

[Dan J.]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. We have stood for our national defense since long before the creation of the Bill of Rights.



I don't consider Americans standing together to fight as one whether they be Democrat or Republican, Marine or Air Force, Special Forces or Airborne as "barbarians".

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

Personally, I do not feel standing by and being slaughtered like sheep is representing a higher standard of morals. Do you really think they will stop if we do not fight back?



TOXIC

 

[Larry Harp]

I don't consider Americans standing together to fight as one whether they be Democrat or Republican, Marine or Air Force, Special Forces or Airborne as "barbarians".

Nor do I but I don't believe that the war on terrorism is going to have a completley military solution. Uniformed military's like the ours and the rest of the civilized countries are primarily designed to go to battle with other uniformed standing armies. That's why we are having all the touble in Iraq now in 2005 and we breezed right through in 1991. In my opinion what it's going to take to stop the Moslem terrorist is going to have to come from the Islamic world. We are going to have to make them see that it is in their best intrest to join the rest of the world and put a stop to this. It does make it a little hard when countries like Iran elect these criminals as the head of their government. I believe the greatest weapon the US has is capitalism. No matter what your idology you're going to want to eat some McDonalds fries and wear some Levis. We could have ousted Castro years ago if we had gone down there and built a bunch of McDonalds, Gaps, and Old Navy's. I believe alot of our problems in the middle east are a result of American forgien policy over the last 100 years and it's going to take forgien policy to fix it. We also need to get the notion out of our head that we have to make the rest of the world into an image of ourselves. The Arabic world is still pissed off about the Crusades and they are very sensitave toward our meddeling in their affairs. We need to get off the Middle East oil teat as well.



Gotta go to work. L8r



Harpo

 

[Tony Payne]

Tox...



I think you have to look at it another way.... similar to fighing gangs and common criminals...



You will not "beat them" into stopping, and everytime you think you have one extinguished, another will come along.



The extremists that we are fighting are just that... criminals and gangs of thugs... any other definition for them only glorifiies them.



We should concentrate on intelligence gathering and stopping those things we can stop... inciting prejedice and hatred by blanket statements wont help.



Going after the leaders of the gangs (Osama, al Sadr, etc... ) is the only thing we can truly do... but even getting those guys wont stop it.



Going after the leaders of countries that support the criminals also helps... but wont stop it.



Only when Society AS A WHOLE, be they muslim, christian, atheist or whatever, decides enough is enough will they stop it... but even then you will still have some amount of criminal 'extremist' activity.



Even within the shores of this great country, we have these same extremists... they just usually dont resort to 'suicide bombings'... but we still have our fair share of violence based on extremism.



The answer? There isnt one, atleast not an easy one. Enforcing any single ideology (theological or politcal) only creates more animosity.



Stand idly by? No one has EVER suggested that as an answer.

 

[Mark Hofman]

I've tried my best to stay out of these discussions, and in a moment of weakness I'm going to put in my two cents worth.



I am coming to the conviction, more and more, that the issue of radical Islamic terrorism is a theological one. And it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not, what matters is that we see and understand what THEY hold to be true.



These are groups of people who have been indoctrinated with the teaching that eternal life is the reward for those who kill "infidels" (non-believers; non-Muslims). Right now, Americans and western culture is the "infidel".



They really don't care that you are an American, a Brit, an Austrailian, or even a local Iraqi. If you don't buy into their belief system, you deserve to die and they will have eternal life because they killed you. Radical Islam is an ideology of evangelism by fear and force.



Lead, follow,... or die.



How do you fight a war between ideologies? I'm a Christian (of the Lutheran persuation). Nowhere in our formal teaching (Book of Concord) do we teach that I will gain/lose eternal life by doing anything (either good or bad). So my ideology is the polar opposite of a radical Islamic fundamentalist.



But whereas I won't be plotting to kill HIM, he's out there plotting and planning how to kill ME. And he believes that he will be rewarded in his own death for doing it!!! How do you fight that?



Strange world. In some ways, I'm looking forward to leaving it.

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

Nope, I don't buy it. I will agree you have to do both.....educate AND eradicate. That is exactly what law enforcement does with gangs, they arrest the leaders and as many of the rank and file as possible. Do they eliminate them? NO. Are the remnants a threat, NO again. They are still there but they are "under control". With terrorists you have to cut off their $$, leave them no where hide and exterminate them. You start with the next generation on the re-education part after you have installed a self supporting government. You cut the head off the snake. Hitler was defeated.....Japan was defeated (sucide attacks were common)......and radical Islam will be defeated by FORCE as well as temperance. Since you cannot reason with them and they are determined to die in their Jihad then all you can do is accomodate them. Because they are a religous "gang" there are no other options. Remember, this is a tribal culture where force rules....period. You are not going to negotiate with that mentality. I do agree with the President, you have to deal with them on their turf or soon you will be dealing with them right here at home in your backyard. I also believe the Muslims need to cut this cancer from the body of their religion and fix what they have helped spawn because the true Muslim religon is peace loving. Why-o-why have Muslims around the world not condemed this radical *******azation of their religion. The US welcomes all religions and many do things that we consider odd from the perspective of our own differing religion but there is one thing in common with them all........WE LIVE IN PEACE with each other. We obey the laws of "society" and do no harm to others. The barbaric interpritation of Islam that created these extremesits needs to be eliminated by whole human race.



I don't have the answers but there is one thing I do know.....Anybody and I mean ANYBODY who believes that killing women and childeren in the manner of the WTC does not belong on the face of this earth and to be part of the designation "Human" because we as humans have evolved beyond that.



TOXIC

 

[Mark Hofman]

I came back to add one more thought...



In the ETO during World War II, and specificaly during the Battle of the Bulge, German SS forces (commanded by Otto Skorzany) dressed in American uniforms and penetrated Allied lines to wreak havoc and confusion. French and Dutch resistance fighters didn't wear a specific uniform that was easily recognizable as being the "enemy". In both cases, when these combatants (which is what they should rightly be called) were caught - in the former case by Allied troops, in the latter case by the Germans - the punishment was to be put up against a wall and shot. No appeals court, no long drawn out process - just a quick trial (if any), verdict and summary sentence.



Those are the rules of war. Only combatants who are dressed in a readily identifiable uniform of your opponent should be treated as "soldiers" under the Geneva Convention. Anyone who doesn't want to play by those rules doesn't merit treatement under those rules.



Terrorists, under these assumptions, are asking to be shot on sight, or summarily executed if captured. If, in Iraq, a "civilian" is caught with a weapon or explosives, they should be treated just like the German soldier wearing an American uniform in Belgium, 1944.



This business of detention camps and catch-and-release programs for insurgents, terrorists or members of Al Qaida is for the birds.

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

I agree MO. Show me one terrorist that has been "reformed" or otherwise defected from those ranks. I feel sorry for the regular Iraq people because they cannot be trusted for the simple reason that you can't tell them apart from the terrorists. Vietnam was the same, Charlie used women and children and blended in with the general public. We tried diplomacy there and look what it got us.



Reminds me of a story.



There was a mouse and a scorpion trapped on an island with the water rising. The scorpion asked the mouse to swim him to the shore. The mouse refused because he was afraid the scorpion would sting him and they both would drown. The scorpion promised not to harm him and asked for the mouse to trust him. He did, and halfway across the river the scorpion stung the mouse. The mouse exclaimed "why did you sting me, now we will both drown"?



The scorpion responded....



"Because I am a scorpion, that's what I do"



TOXIC