Allah or Jesus?

[Larry Harp]

Recieved this in E-mail today, thought I'd pass it along. My appologies to anyone this offends.



Allah or Jesus?





by Rick Mathes





Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.





I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.



When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"



There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"



I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"





The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."



I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"



The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"



You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.



Senders words: Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.



This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well known leader in prison ministry

 

[Rob LaMoy]

Read that the other day. Good one. Actually, Islam does not teach this, but a particular sect does. Same as a cult in our society like the Masons or Satanic culture.

 

[Tony Payne]

Remember the crusades??? the spanish inquisition???



The Catholic church did have a "believe or die" mentality for a long time...



Extremism is not limited to any one faith or religion.

 

[Dewey Leggett]

You do not need to apologize. If it offends, too bad. Do you think Jesus offended the Jewish leaders (Pharisees, Sanhedrin, etc.)??



Thanks for the story.

 

[Brian Bell2]

Hopefully some day in the future ( I hope near future ),We as residents of this planet will be able to get past these types of issues ( faith, color, nationality, ect... )It is a shame that people still think like this and continue to teach their children to think this way. I apploud the person that spoke at this meeting.

 

[David Hunt]

A little bit more info on the "encounter".



david.....
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

 

[Anotherdink Scott Chambers]

the masons are not a cult, they are a fraternity of men, one basic thing is a requirement to be invited to join, the belief in one god that includes muslim budist, and the cristian faiths, jewish for your infoand yes you most be a man. Its secrets are of the masons that built the temples in king solomans days in the old testement, most of what we are based on is in the karan, and the tora also. not mad just clearing up the cult thing and dont like being included with wicka or satan cults being I am a cristian. how do I now im a master mason, and in the scottish rite. Remember the shriners (masons) and all those hospitals for the sick and burnt they they have built. We do not sacrafice or kill for religion.

 

[Tony Payne]

excellent point "anotherdink"... cults are more easily identified by their belief that only "they" have the "keys"...



While I am not familiar with all of the Masonic teachings and traditions, I think the implied "secrecy" that surrounds the group is what causes many to add them to the "cult" definition... (People often lable that which they dont know or understand incorrectly).



FYI, Wicca is no more a cult than the masons are, they are (TTBOMK) a faith/following that is very ancient and based on nature...similar to many native american traditions...



Ben, while I don't wish to "start something", can you tell me how your quote makes you any better/worse than the muslim's (that you claim are "wicked")? IMHO, it is this type of statement that is the very example of intollerance that leads to the situations we are in. Care to quote a "christian" doctorine that supports your claim?

 

[Frank Daniel]

This is a phony message that has been making the rounds for quite a while however, the message is valid.



Rob, all Muslims follow the Quran which says "Convert the Jews and the Christians or kill them".



Simnitro, the crusades and the spanish inquisition were abominations from a deceived and corrupt catholic church. True Christians do not have a convert or kill mentality.



Anotherdink, the Masons have done a lot of great deeds however, do not be confused. Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham. Instead, they worship allah who is none other than satan himself masquerading as a god. That's why they are told to convert the Jews and the Christians or kill them.

If you want to know the true history of the masons here is a link.



http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1015.html



God Bless.

Frank

 

[Ed G]

I deleted this post, I just didn't think it was worth reading.

God Bless,

Ed

 

[Tony Payne]

Ed... I am fairly sure (certain even) that I can find and cite examples in the OT of the "christian" bible that is just as violent as the ones you posted.



Ben... While it is (apparently) true that muslim extremists flew the planes into the WTC, that is not an accurate portrayel of the rest of the muslim faith.



Frank, while christains may not say "convert or die", they do have a "convert or go to hell" attitude...



All...



The simple point is not to let the actions of a few be the base of your judgements on the whole. There are daily examples of "True christians" that would make Osama very proud.



Also, I am not advocating either religion, or any religion for that matter, it just pains me to see people that claim to be "christians" that wish pain and death to those they do not know nor understand...

 

[Ken Neeley]

We're all brotha's in the eyes of the Lord...'nuff said!!!

 

[Carlos Hathcock III]

I tell you what, this is exactly the reason I hang out on this board. A good discussion, and not knife throwing just an education.



Carlos

 

[Ed G]

Sorry again,

I just feel like I am saying too much, so I deleted this one also. I just want to share whats in my heart, but this is not really the place to do so.

God Bless,

Ed

 

[Ed G]

Deleted once again...sorry!

God Bless,

Ed

 

[Larry Harp]

Did ya'll noticed how I threw that out there and then just sat back and watched?

;>)



Harpo

 

[Ed G]

Very tricky Sooner! But since your a Sooner Fan....I'll let it slide!!

Boomer Sooner!

Ed

 

[Larry Harp]

Aww you know.....there's no good sports on until August.



Harpo

 

[Tony Payne]

ok Ed...



You paint the muslim faith with a very wide brush my friend...



If ALL muslims believed as you say they do, do you not think that the world as a whole would be a very violent place??? If what you say is true, I doubt very seriously that we would have ever made it out of England...



How many Muslims are in america right now??? How many of them have blown up clinics because they disagree with a medical decision? How many reports of "muslim uprisings" do you hear about?



And, btw, when did the muslims march on Rome to extend their religion?



My point about the OT was simple, a few scriptures do not a faith make. From the few you posted, with no further surrounding context, and with no other knowledge, you fuel a belief that they are all "hate mongers" when they are not.



While I will not do it, I can do the same with the Christian bible... and you know it. Taking information like this out of context only fuels hate.



How was the situation in the Christian bible any different? When was the scriptures written? When was the scriptures in the koran written? Certianly the "flavor" of the bible changes in the NT as to Christ's message...



I seem to remember an article that discusssed the common roots of the three "holy books" the Koran, the Bible (OT) and the Jewish bible. I'll see if I can find it.



However, with what little you posted, you can also very quickly surmise a "god given battle cry", and several even very quickly suggest how to defend and/or take back that which was taken from them.



How is stating that "disbelief is worse than slaughter" any different than saying "believe in christ or burn in hell for eternity" ??



Ed, you are a victim of "anti muslim" propeganda... unless you can show me that you have studied the faith from front to back, and have truly come to that decision of your own accord. I would actually suggest that you study/read the muslim faith before you make such judgements.



The examples I give from the OT and from christian history are merely examples to show that ALL religions have common edicts and principles, and a history of violence against the "heretics" or "infidels".



"Believe as we do or your not worth spit".



I am not "anti christian" or "pro muslim" or any of that... I am, however, very much against disinformation that these kinds of topics always bring up.



I am also against any and all forms of religous extremism and persecution... I don't care what "brand" you put on it.



Do not paint an entire faith based on the actions of a few... or should we think that all Christians are like Oral Roberts, Tammy Faye, David Koresh, etc???

 

[Rich Stern]

"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."



--Mark Twain

 

[Tony Payne]

Ed,



I also never said "you" wished pain and death on anyone... I simply stated that comments like the one Ben made "get me going" quickly because it is done without accurate knowledge or understanding...



And Ben,



You are welcome to your beliefs and your feelings, Just direct them at the appropriate people.



In thier culture, we are the disbelievers, the infidels, those that have accepted the "wrong message" or "prophet"...and they've been around alot longer than we have been.

 

[Ed G]

Sim,



I pray for you, and I wish you only the best. I know you intend in no way to ever hurt me or anyone else with your comments, and I appreciate that. As I don't ever wish to do that either. If I do, always be honest with me and let me know, because that is not my intention. I, like I stated, am very narrowminded in my views on the Bible and I will never change. I always feel I have to defend those beliefs whenever I get the chance. I pretty much deleted all my earlier posts because I don't want anyone to feel I am a troublemaker who stirs up things. Like I said I only want people to know the same loving God I know, and I want so much for Him to do in their lives what He's done for me.



Thanks for listening,

God Bless

Ed

 

[Anotherdink Scott Chambers]

oh and i made 2 mistakes, it wont be in the karan (sorry if i am spelling it wrong) saloman came after abraham, and true a guy at work told me today wicka was not a cult, but just like some religions cults can be formed within any. I really dont care what faith anyone is thats why god gave us free will even if you dont believe in anything. I have served with many faiths and non believers of anything and good people are good people and bad people are bad people. I try to be a good person even though all may not agree that I am.

 

[Ed G]

Sim,



You haven't offended me in any way. I just get a little uptight sometimes, and I feel I have to respond. I did not edit my posts because I thought they were bad, or wrong, I just thought I got carried away, and I just don't feel this is the time or place to get so deep, ya know? I appreciate your kindness, and I really do pray for you....I never just say that. Have a great day, and remember ......you are welcome in my boat anyday! (in the back of course)



God Bless!

Ed

 

[TrepMan]

OK i'll weigh in just a bit.



First, i'll agree that what I percieve is the far right of the Islamic Muslim terrorists not the overall Islamic faith. And this is from media reports, some web surfing and talking to Mulsims i've met, granted.



Can someone tell me why the "christans" who kill DRs and Nurses who peform abortions (which are legal and protected in the US) based on their interpretation of their "faith" are any different than the Islamic Extremists??



In all religions there are fanatics and extremes, though luckily very few of those on the extreme succumb to killing as a method of conversion.

 

[Ed G]

Trep,



"So called" Christians who kill are just as wrong, and just as deranged as any other person who kills. The only difference I see is that they cannot cite a specific scripture that they are following that says...."go bomb an abortion clinic". They are just following some voice they "think" they hear in their heads that says to do it. These people need serious mental help, as does, I believe, anyone who murders another human being.



By the way, I will never believe for one minute that anyone who does such a thing is a true Christian. They may make that claim, but they are sadly mistaken.



God Bless,

Ed

 

[Tony Payne]

Ed,



Should the muslims (or anyone) interpet the actions of those few "so called christians" as the message/faith/beliefs of all of Christianity?



The difference you cite (lack of a specific scripture) is largely irrelivant, and I'll bet if you approach some of those "so called christians" they will have faith/bible based reasoning.



The point again, that I have tried to be consistent with, is...



Don't judge the whole based on the actions of a few.

 

[Ed G]

Sim,



I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about not judging the whole on the actions of a few. But, I have to disagree with you on the point about scripture. I don't care how you twist the scriptures, you will not find a call for us today as Christians to carry out cold-blooded murder. Like I said, the reason I wouldn't judge all Christians based upon the actions of these lunatics, is because these people are not Christians. Anyone can use the label "Christian". But those who truly are Christians, the Bible says will be known by their fruits. Charles Manson could have called himself a Christian, and maybe even did, who knows, but anyone who truly knows what a Christian is, would know that his claims were false.



Now, to put it in perspective, I will say that the same applies to other religions. Many will take on a label, and live a lifestyle that gives the rest a bad name. Point well taken. I am learning to judge a person by who they "really are" rather than by the "label" they wear.



God Bless,

Ed

 

[Tony Payne]

Ed,



I'm shocked, I actually think we are in agreement!



*Well, not really shocked at all...*

 

[Tony Payne]

One thing I want to add...



You have to remember that in the minds of the "so called"... thier interpetations are just as valid (if not more so) than yours may be...



That is why I take issue with "organized" or "revealed" religion, not because it can't have a positive aspect, but because so many wrongs have been committed in the "name of god"...



My faith is my own, and I will not have it dictated to me by others...

 

[TrepMan]

Sim - I agree with your last post. My biggest issue with any zealots in religion are that faith/religion is a personal thing that can NOT be forced, enforced or beaten into another person! Each of us believes what we do based on lot's of personal reasons (up-bringing, life altering events, reading, ...) and no one can ever "convince" another believer that they are wrong. We can dialog like we are doing above (and on other topics here) to explain why we believe/feel a certain way, but we can NOT change deep seated faith in another person.



How do we know, until we meet our maker, who is right? Many situations in the OT point out where god has asked/directed individuals to help 'save' another group of people, and in some cases those 'non-believers' do or do not "covert". Some perish, some live! I mean when (if you assume the OT is accurate) the flood of Noah came, do you think that Noah was the ONLY righious man alive on the planet???



So, how do we know the mid-african's who worshop oxen poop aren't correct?



Trep

 

[Tony Payne]

Trep...



Don't get me started on the whole flood thing!







<i>"I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that he will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matters to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter." -- Thomas Paine </i>