Wow,....even MORE problems for Toyota

  • Thread starter Bill McElroy [URL]http://www.autonews.com/article/
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My coworker owns a Toyota Hybrid. He was telling me of a brake issue with his. Something about an electrical applied brake system that switches over to mechanical braking at some point of the process, but there is a "lull" when it switches over. He will be applying the brakes to stop and it's slowing down. Then the car switches braking to mechanical, but there is a FULL release of the brakes for a very minute period of time. He said it spooks the heck out of him when it happens. He brought it back to Toyota and they made it better... but he said it still does it from time to time.



I told him that we will take my truck to lunch. :lol:



All the best,

Glenn
 
Tell him to take the floor mats out!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Is that what Toyota recommended? :blink:

All the best,

Glenn
 
They've been denying there ever was a problem up until VERY recently,..even AFTER hundreds of crashes and 19 deaths..THEN,..when they finally admitted that there "may" be a problem,..the US GOV'T TOLD THEM to quit mfgrg ALL the affected models until the problem was fixed!! Soooo,...what does Toyota do?? They immediately start taking out ads saying that they're sooooo safetly concious and they really CARE about their customers, yada yada. (This is all after they've been forced to cease production by the US Gov't,....it was NOT because Toyota CARES!!) Anyway,...they've known about these problems for years,..but they denied them vehemently up until people started dying! Even after that for as long as they could!!



The really chitty part of all of this is NOW the gov't is REALLY scrutinizing their products and finding all kinds of shady goings-on, cover-ups and denials regarding safetly issues and testing methods,.. the media can no longer cover for their beloved manufacturing premadonna's all while trying to bury GM and Chrysler. Seems that the tide has turned now and Toyota is finding out that it's one thing to "become number 1",(even if it means cutting corners in product safety in order to gain market share)..it's entirely a different story to STAY there!



All the more reason to BUY AMERICAN!!:cool:
 
There new slogan should be:"Toyota,..moving forward,..and side to side,..and HOPEFULLY stopping!" :eek: :lol::rolleyes:
 
Nope...I don't take joy in seeing people get killed because of bad designs and mfgr's denials,..but I do love seeing the press finally becoming a little less biased and all the "foreign lover's" powder getting wet!!:rolleyes:



Trust me,...we have a LOT of scars on our backs here,..we know what it's like to get beat up and our scar tissue is THICK!! Toyota is just now finding out what it's like and they're in for a helluva whipping. How thin is their skin and how far will they fall??...that's the biggest question!!







 
I hope they fall right off the US map! :)



Then the US autos can hire all the Toyota manufacturing people :)



A fella can dream cant he?
 
I guess I don't look like a fool for trading my Toyota for a loaded Jeep Grand Cherokee.



Seriously though, it makes me wonder with the brake issues. I bought the FJ Cruiser used and noticed brake issues. I had trouble stopping at times especially if I hit a big bump or chuckhole while applying the brakes. It's like they would stop working and then catch. Warranty was long gone so I had all new brake pads and rotors put on at Midas and that seemed to help. Now I wonder if it was a Toyota thing although the FJ Cruiser is not one in the recall. Stopping ability was definitely part of my decision to get rid of it for towing my boat. I bought it when I didn't have a job. It was cheap and did the trick but glad it's gone.



My 08 Grand Cherokee Overland with the hemi has every option imaginable. I think I am finally appreciating a car after I had one with nothing, well power windows. Just hope it stays reliable for me.
 
And wow ... no American auto builder ever suffered the same fate.
 
Now its HONDA's turn.....



Half a million cars for them are being recalled.
 
Too bad all this didn't come out before cash for clunkers. I think I saw a stat that said 11% of the CFC cars sold were Toyota's.



Gene
 
That's true Gene,......and that part does crack me up!! "How do you like your car now SUCKAAAAA!!!??":p (Saw an article y'day saying that resale values accdg to KBB on Yota's are dropping by as much as $750 a WEEK,...and some dealers won't even take them in on a trade...other dealers are dropping trade in values by 30-40% because they still have to get the repairs done BEFORE they can resell them and the resale values are falling weekly!!) How quickly things can change!! Unbelievable!!:blink:
 
I can't wait to see if Consumer Reports keeps up their "Yota Luv Fest" in future issues. Even though I agree with someone that posted here (Tox I think) that CR is basically "paid off" by companies for the ratings, I wonder if CR can justify their continued love of foreign vehicles after all these recalls. It's hard to keep blowing smoke when your choking on it. :lol:



All the best,

Glenn
 
CR has been choking on more than smoke for the past 20 years.
 
Strange how Toyotas problem is with sh1tty American parts. Wouldn't supprise me if CTS Corp (the maker of the bad throttle control) farmed the parts out to Chinese manufacturing then sold them to Toyota. That seems to be the American way now days. The Denso controlers have no issues. The Prius is nothing but an ABS software update. Look at how many software updates GM does over and over for poor drivability issues with thier new Chinese crap.:rolleyes:
 
CR's credibility will also take a hit from this too......a lot of people are already questioning their "testing techniques" because none of these recall issues were ever "discovered" by them. Will be interesting to see what happens with the congressional hearings!! Seems more and more evidence is popping up now proving that 'Yota has known about these issues for a helluva lot longer than they're acknowledging...lyin' bastiges!:angry:
 
Software upgrades happen all the time.....but GM isn't lying about it or denying it or attempting to cover it up,.....and that "new chinese crap" you speak of,....they're only built and sold in China...NOTHING built there is imported back into the US!
 
We get parts from the GM dealers all the time in genuine GM boxes and bags that proudly state "Hecho in China". Pull any window regulator of the shelf and check it out for a start. They last about 6 months and bend like a pretzel. All companies are looking for maximum profit and it seems China is the answer even for your Government Motors Corp.
 
It's funny how different people read different things. I have not read anywhere that the Gov't. "forced" Toyota into doing recalls. What I read was that after a couple of floor mat issues, Toyota went ahead and investigated the problem themselves and when they found problems with the throttle control THEY reported it to the NHTSA? After a meeting with them Toyota agreed to the recall AND suspended sales of the new models. I haven't heard of any building stoppages and then I don't know how anybody could be happy with thousands more Americans out of work. I don't believe any of the arguments here will change any members mind on what brand car to buy if one is a better deal than the other.

The same reason the naysayers buy, without question, Japanese rods & reels and don't think twice about it. Or the plethora of stuff that they bought that was made in China, India, Pakistan, and even Viet Nam! Japan at least employs Americans and is now an ally, as opposed to a communist China or Pakistan which is probably the leader in supplying training, supplies, and hiding places to Al Qaeda.

I'm sorry, I just get angry with all of the "Car Talk Crap" that goes on here by people with vested interests in certain corporations. Every one of the major car companies have had issues that they have lied to the public about. And some have done anything they can to improve their profit margins whether it was good for the country or not. Like Ford who profiteered shamelessly during WWI or like G.M buying the cable car companies across the country and then tearing up every cable car track in the U.S., and having the rails twisted so they would be unusable while destroying the cars themselves. This was so they could sell their line of Buses and outfit them with General Tires!

I don't know if the faulty throttle controls were made in China and then sent back here or not but it WAS an American company that sold the parts to Toyota.

People will buy whatever they think is the cheapest and the best buy, no matter where it comes from. That's why Walmart is just about taking over the world and you know it. I just got up to look into my closet at my 100 mph suit from BPS. Guess what, made in China! I don't even want to look at my rods & reels and a lot of my lures. I just want to know why anyone who buys a foreign car is so UN-American when we all have bunches of stuff in our homes that were not made here. I guess, for some unknown reason, that's different. My brother worked for Genral Motor's as middle management for 42 years. I would hate to start documenting some of the things he has told me over that span.

Why would anyone listen to an evaluation company, like CR, tell you what best car to buy while at the same time tell you what the best toaster is? Ridiculous! But, in complete disregard to whomever says so, CR is NOT paid off by anyone. Why, if they were, would anyone supply models of anything for them to test knowing that it was all rigged. A rather ridiculous hypothesis. I Apologize, I'm just tired of it. So, bring it on. I've heard it before.



Uncle Billy
 
Byron,......yes, some "parts" for some models are outsourced to chinese suppliers...I misunderstood your comment...I thought you were referring to the cars built over there. My bad!



Unc,...as far as I know,..nobody's ever been killed by a japanese rod or reel or toaster. I could be wrong tho....relax dude,..if you don't want to get upset,..don't read the thread. Some people just have more vested interest in some "topics" (i.e. "Car Talk Crap") more than others. Our livelihoods depend on it.



I think you will be shocked at how much the Japanese have tried to cover up and deny these problems...it'll all come out in the hearings. As far as the throttle cables...that's not even the root cause of the problem,..it's a cheap bandaid! And..those pedal and throttle parts are all designed and engineered in Japan...so what if they were manufactured by a US company...they were made to toyota's specs and standards,..that does NOT make the US mfgr guilty of a "bad design"!! ...:rolleyes:
 
Rather lengthy,...but VERY insightful...it brings a bright light to a lot of the issues regarding these recalls. UB,...you owe it to yourself to read this in its entirety!!;)







Secretive Culture Led Toyota Astray

The Wall Street Journal

By Kate Linebaugh, Dionne Searcey, and Norohiko Shirouzu

Feb. 8, 2010





On Jan. 19, in a closed-door meeting in Washington, D.C., two top executives from Toyota Motor Corp. gave American regulators surprising news.



Evidence had been mounting for years that Toyota cars could speed up suddenly, a factor suspected in crashes causing more than a dozen deaths. Toyota had blamed the problem on floor mats pinning the gas pedal. Now, the two Toyota men revealed they knew of a problem in its gas pedals.


The two top officials from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration "were steamed," according to a person who discussed the meeting with both sides. As the meeting closed, NHTSA chief David Strickland hinted at using the agency's full authority, which can include subpoenas, fines, and even forcing auto makers to stop selling cars.



Toyota had known about the gas-pedal problem for more than a year. Its silence with U.S. regulators, and other newly uncovered details from the crisis enveloping Toyota, reveal a growing rift between the Japanese auto maker and NHTSA, one of its top regulators. Regulators came to doubt Toyota's commitment to addressing safety defects, according to interviews with federal officials and industry executives, and accounts of Toyota and NHTSA interactions the past year.



The heart of Toyota's problem: Its secretive corporate culture in Japan clashed with U.S. requirements that auto makers disclose safety threats, people familiar with the matter say. The relationship soured even though Toyota had hired two former NHTSA officials to manage its ties with the agency.


Toyota's troubles spread Tuesday when it recalled all Priuses to address a braking problem, even as executives suggested the step was unnecessary.



Toyota acknowledges the rift with regulators. "Believe me, we have changed our mind-set," said Shinichi Sasaki, Toyota's quality chief, referring to a heated December confrontation in Tokyo with NHTSA officials over floor mats. "We don't believe this is going to be a problem in the future. We are completely on the same page with NHTSA."



Toyota's woes have roots in 2002's redesigned Camry sedan, which featured a new type of gas pedal. Instead of physically connecting to the engine with a mechanical cable, the new pedal used electronic sensors to send signals to a computer controlling the engine. The same technology migrated to cars including Toyota's luxury Lexus ES sedan. The main advantage is fuel efficiency.



But by early 2004, NHTSA was getting complaints that the Camry and ES sometimes sped up without the driver hitting the gas. It launched its first acceleration probe, focusing on 37 complaints, 30 of which involved accidents, according to a NHTSA document filled out by Scott Yon, an agency investigator, dated March 3, 2004.



Mr. Yon and another NHTSA official, Jeffrey Quandt, discussed the case several times over the next 20 days with Toyota, according to a deposition by a Toyota official filed in a Michigan lawsuit related to one of the fatal crashes. In that accident, a 2005 Camry allegedly raced out of control for a quarter-mile, and sped up to 80 miles an hour from 25, before crashing and killing its driver.



By month's end, Mr. Yon updated his NHTSA case file with a memo. It said NHTSA had decided to limit the probe to incidents involving brief bursts of acceleration, and would exclude so-called "long duration" incidents in which cars allegedly continued racing down the road after a driver hit the brakes.



The reason: Investigators decided it would be more effective to isolate any possible defect by zeroing in on shorter incidents, a Transportation Department official said. The shorter incidents looked more like "pure cases of engine surging due to a possible defect," the official said. Longer incidents were excluded because they showed more signs of driver error such as mistaking the accelerator for the brake.



Messrs. Quandt and Yon didn't respond to requests for comment.



Of the 37 incidents, 27 were categorized as long-duration and not investigated. On July 22, 2004, the probe was closed because NHTSA had found no pattern of safety problems.



Complaints kept rolling in. In 2005 and 2006, NHTSA got hundreds of reports of unintended acceleration involving Toyotas, according to Safety Research & Strategies, a consumer-safety research firm. On two occasions, Toyota filed responses arguing that no defect or trends could be found in the complaints.

In a Nov. 15, 2005, letter to Mr. Quandt, Christopher Tinto, a Toyota liaison with the safety agency, asked NHTSA to drop a preliminary probe into sudden acceleration by the Camry and Lexus ES, saying "there is no factor or trend indicating that a vehicle or component defect exists." He used similar language in a June, 11, 2007, letter responding to a subsequent probe.



In March 2007, the agency opened a new probe, focusing on whether the gas pedal in the Lexus ES350 sedan could get caught beneath heavy rubber floor mats sold as accessories. It looked at five crashes, including four multivehicle accidents.



NHTSA sent surveys to 1,986 owners of ES350s. Six-hundred responded, and 59 said they had experienced unintended acceleration. Thirty-five attributed the surge to a floor mat pressing down on the gas pedal. The rest either didn't specify or cited other possible explanations.



NHTSA officials worked on the probe with their main contact at Toyota, Christopher Santucci. The NHTSA team knew Mr. Santucci: He had worked there from 2001 to 2003. Mr. Santucci's supervisor at Toyota, Mr. Tinto, had worked at NHTSA in the past, too. Messrs. Santucci and Tinto didn't respond to requests for comment.



At one point, Mr. Santucci brought a Lexus ES350 to a parking lot outside Washington, D.C., for testing. Messrs. Yon and Quandt raced across the lot, hitting 60 mph before jamming on the brakes to measure the force needed to stop.



It's common for NHTSA to work cooperatively with all auto makers in this way. NHTSA can do its own testing, but it generally relies on manufacturers to supply technical data. Its Office of Defects Investigation has only 57 employees to deal with some 35,000 complaints a year.



Car makers "are almost self-regulated," said an auto-industry chief executive who has worked with NHTSA. Without makers' help, there's "no way for NHTSA to look into all these issues." To spur cooperation, the agency has the power to force recalls and fine companies for providing misleading information or not providing safety information in a timely fashion.



Toyota for years has been one of the most difficult auto makers for regulators to deal with because it is resistant to being told what to do, said Joan Claybrook, a former NHTSA administrator who later became president of consumer-advocacy group Public Citizen until stepping down last year. But she also blamed the agency's collaborative approach for undermining its role. "They have tremendous power and authority but they don't tend to use it."



A Transportation Department spokeswoman disputes that, saying: "NHTSA has the most active defect investigation program in the world. In the last three years alone [it] resulted in 524 recalls involving 23.5 million vehicles."



By August 2007, NHTSA wanted Toyota to issue a Lexus and Camry recall to remove the floor mats Toyota blamed for the acceleration problems. "Toyota assured us that this would solve the problem," said Nicole Nason, then NHTSA's administrator.



In their probe, NHTSA investigators asked Toyota, "Are you sure it's not the gas pedal?" Ms. Nason said. "They assured us it's just the floor mat."



Toyota says that, at that time, it had no indication of problems with the pedal design.



Toyota ended up recalling Camrys and ES350s from 2007 and 2008 model years. Owners were told to bring the cars to dealerships to get new mats. The action involved 55,000 cars.



After the recall, reports continued trickling in that it may not have resolved the issue. One major case was 2008's spectacular fatal crash in Michigan. On April 19 that year, Guadalupe Alberto, 77 years old, was driving a 2005 Camry on Copeman Boulevard, a residential street in Flint. She was traveling about 25 mph when the car accelerated to 80, according a lawsuit against Toyota in Michigan. The car raced about a quarter mile before going airborne and colliding with a tree, killing Ms. Alberto, according to the suit, in Genesee County circuit court. The suit remains under way.



Floor mats couldn't have been the cause. Ms. Alberto had removed hers days before the accident, said one of the attorneys handling the case against Toyota.
The accident was similar in some ways to the "long duration" type excluded from NHTSA's first probe in 2004.



A year later, NHTSA was asked to open a new probe by a Minnesota man who said his Lexus ES350 took off on a highway and raced for two miles before he regained control. Toyota filed a rebuttal, saying it believed a floor mat was the cause.



Separately, since December 2008 Toyota's European unit had been looking into a problem causing cars in Ireland and England to surge or fail to slow. After months of testing, Toyota found the culprit: a plastic part in the pedal mechanism also widely used in the U.S.



Toyota redesigned the pedals for new cars coming off the assembly line. But it didn't issue a recall in Europe or notify U.S. regulators. Nor did Toyota alert its U.S. unit to the situation in Europe, according to a person familiar with the matter.



Last month, Toyota's Mr. Sasaki said the company didn't alert U.S. regulators then because it didn't see in the U.S. specific consumer complaints about sticky pedals, although a few complaints started to come in by early autumn.


The Europe issue hasn't been linked to accidents and isn't related to sudden acceleration because it happens near idle speeds. Toyota says it's looking into other potential causes.



Toyota is still very much run by its Japan headquarters, despite being active in the U.S. since 1957. Top leadership doesn't include U.S. executives. The Toyota officials who run the recall process are in Japan.



For reasons like these, Toyota often reacted relatively slowly to safety issues raised by NHTSA, according to three people familiar with Toyota's inner workings.



"What has really happened is a breakdown in communications within Toyota" between its D.C. office and Japan headquarters, said one of these people. "The Washington office didn't have the information it needed to provide to the government."


In August 2009, another fatal accident in the U.S. put the problem in the spotlight. Mark Saylor, a California Highway Patrol officer, was driving a Lexus ES350 near San Diego when it accelerated to more than 100 mph. As the car careened out of control, one occupant called 911 to report the emergency. The call ended when the car crashed.



Everyone in the car died, including Mr. Saylor, his wife, daughter and brother-in-law. A tape of the 911 call drew attention to the acceleration issue.



The Lexus, a loaner from a dealer that Mr. Saylor was driving while his car was being serviced, did have the all-weather mats. And a previous driver of the loaner had told the dealer the mat had hit the pedal.



At NHTSA, patience was wearing thin. Its deputy, Ronald Medford, summoned Toyota officials to a Sept. 25 meeting in Washington, and told them they needed to act faster to more fully resolve the mat problem. Replacing mats wasn't enough, he said. Toyota also had to alter its gas pedals to make sure they couldn't get caught on mats.



On Oct. 5, Toyota recalled 3.8 million vehicles to fix the floor-mat issue, its largest ever recall.



But tensions kept rising. On Nov. 3, Toyota put out a statement saying NHTSA had concluded that "no defect exists" in the recalled vehicles. A day later, in an unusually public rebuke, NHTSA released its own statement calling Toyota's "inaccurate and misleading."


Around the same time, the two were at odds again over a completely different issue. Toyota recalled Tundra pickup trucks for a corrosion problem that could lead to the spare tire falling off. But the recall hadn't come as quickly as NHTSA wanted, according to people familiar with the matter. Toyota had also been reluctant to include corrosion issues affecting the fuel tank, one person said.



On Jan. 8, Toyota amended its original recall to include the fuel-tank corrosion issue. In a letter to NHTSA. it stressed that it didn't consider the issue "a safety related defect."



Amid the clashes, NHTSA's Mr. Medford and other officials flew to Japan. On Dec. 15 they stood before about 100 Toyota executives and engineers and explained Toyota's obligation to comply with the U.S.'s defect-recall process, a Transportation Department official said.



Later, Mr. Medford met with a smaller group of Toyota executives. According to the official, Mr. Medford told them bluntly: Toyota was taking too long to respond to safety issues. He reminded them that Toyota is obligated under U.S. law to find and report defects promptly.



Mr. Sasaki, Toyota's quality chief, said the meeting included a "debate" in which NHTSA objected to Toyota's view that users needed to install the mats properly. NHTSA's response, he said, was Toyota couldn't expect that from every consumer. "NHTSA people expressed disbelief over Toyota's view, and we received some harsh words from them," he said.



On Jan. 4, NHTSA's new chief, Mr. Strickland, was sworn in. His first crisis walked in the door Jan. 19, when two Toyota executives told him that Toyota's Japan headquarters had known there was a flaw in the pedals, according to a person familiar with the situation.



A few days later, Toyota had the details of a 2.3-millon-vehicle recall worked out. But there was a hitch: Toyota didn't have enough parts in hand to make repairs immediately.



At times, NHTSA gives car makers extra time to get replacement parts ready before recall notices go out. This time, it was too late. And regulators told Toyota it would have to stop selling cars. On Jan. 26, that's what Toyota did.
 
In the end what is this all going to mean for U.S. auto consumers?? Increased Federal Regulations for ALL auto mfgr's electrical and safety component's, resulting in increased prices for ALL cars and Trucks built or imported and sold here.



Moral of the story:..The more you try to "save"..the more it costs in the long run,...and the more ya'll try to cover up...the deeper they're gonna dig!!!" :eek:

 
I guess if most Americans derived their "facts" from soundbites and hearsay, we would all be tired of the "car talk crap" as well. :wacko: Fortunately, I've read and investigated from many alternative sources and find the commonality of facts underlying the outright deception being perpetrated by Toyota and its allies in this case is utterly deplorable. :angry: To me it is not an "us vs. them" or GM vs. Toyota argument, but a need to understand why an international corporation made fully aware of these DEADLY problems would continue with subterfuge and denial while Americans die. If no criminal liability falls on shoulders over this, no one of us will be safe from goods produced for American consumption. I don't have a "dog in this fight". I'd like to think I have about 300 million "dogs in this fight", with several friends and family members included. Regardless of the manufacturer, brushing aside any of these seriously fatal problems and concerns over brand loyalty is ludicrous and detrimental to our entire society. :unsure:



Rant off. :D
 
Well, it's no different than the scum who run this country who lie, cheat (on their wive's) and steal from the American public. The corruption that goes on between our government and other governments, our Congress and Senate and even down to the local political level is an abomination. Like Unca Billy, I am tired of all the rhetoric, soundbites (Thanks Dan for mentioning that) and lack of morality (and I don't mean just sexual) that WE tolerate is mind boggling. Why do we put up with it? When are we going to have the gonads and gonad-ettes (for our female audience) to stop putting up with crap and do something about it. Massachusetts MAY be the start of things to come. Term limits, tort reform and the abolishment of political action committees and special interest groups is probably a good start.



Okay - done with my rant also! Peace
 
Unc....you need to read different sources. Toyota was MANDATED to STOP selling and producing these vehicles. They are killers as they stand now.



I am proud of the media in Detroit for stating it factually and I know I had seen the same reports on national media outlets.



I will admit that I also saw "spins" about how Toyota was doing it as a precaution and laughed when I read it.



The love affair of Toyota in this country is amazing. I know WWII vets that cannot believe it. Maybe its a Detroit thing, but I like the fact that MOST people around here believe in this country and the people that live in it. AND we want the people to be able to work hard and enjoy the fruits of their labors whatever they may be....



Sadly that might not be able to happen if we dont have a diversified workforce and VERY strong manufacturing!
 
My turn! A little long.



I don't think that Toyota is the problem here. I don't own one or ever plan too, but come on, how many people have died from this? Yes, I am glad no one I personally know has died from this, and hope no one else does, but look at how many have died from drugs in this country and look at how many have died abuse. I could go on for a while here but the big difference is that it is Americans (for the most part) that are abusing drugs and each other so it is more tolerable. Now that a foreign company has sold a product in the US and over taken the American companies at their own game, "then" does it get everyone up in arms, and much more so than when it happens to an American company. It is a global economy as everyone knows. Trep spends time in China for work and many others I know travel abroad to do business. I bet they are getting a warm reception too, just like the foreign companies do here in the US. I see that in Lafayette, Indiana they are going to be building a Toyota engine plant. Headlines about it are positive due to job creation and even the Unions are cheering hoping to divide up the profit pie to their favor. I just bought a Dodge Nitro. (No I don't need to hear about any opinions about my decision.) But I know for a fact that many of the parts were made over seas, profits going there etc...... I just want everyone to understand that is you make the best product, sell it at the best price and service it properly that you will win, period. I do not buy from sales reps that bash the competition or consort with people that bash friend, family or others. If you can't be positive don't be.



Lastly, I do see that many have tried to do the best for themselves and the companies they work for. You can hear the pride in your comments. There are a lot of very smart people here, most smarter than me. Let's just agree to do our best and make your company the most competitive you can without trying to bash the competition because in my opion it makes you look bad. Trying to bring them down to your level is how I explain it to my kids I coach!



Rant off!



Randy!
 
Randy -
I don't think that Toyota is the problem here. I don't own one or ever plan too, but come on, how many people have died from this?



Nineteen at the last count I've read with possibly many more being attributed to the negligence portrayed and resolution postponed. How many need to die for a company to fix what is obviously broken??? :huh:



...but look at how many have died from drugs in this country and look at how many have died <sic> of/from abuse. I could go on for a while here but the big difference is that it is Americans (for the most part) that are abusing drugs and each other so it is more tolerable.



I don't know anybody personally who finds a death from drug abuse "tolerable". I think it's a shame for a life cut short out of stupidity or addiction with drugs. (JMO) I do know that even the most strung out junkie knows at some point drugs abused will kill. How many of those 19 dead (and counting) or their families thought that the safety equipment and standard operational mechanisms of their brand new Toyota was going to kill them??? :eek: A junkie, druggie, (whatever) makes a conscious decision to abuse. These Americans bought a car. (period) Many purchased affected models even AFTER Toyota was made aware of these serious issues with the vehicle, yet chose to keep the information private. I'm sorry, but your comparison of those two analogies is a textbook example of "apples and oranges". ;)



Now that a foreign company has sold a product in the US and over taken the American companies at their own game, "then" does it get everyone up in arms, and much more so than when it happens to an American company.



You might want to think back, or research, a little blip in (70's) history made by the Ford Pinto. (An American Car.) It almost killed FOMOCO and public opinion was in the toilet for years. This was also after numerous deaths and headlines of improprieties. That kinda kills the whole America hates foreigners thing expressed in your post. :blink:



I, as many Americans, do not see this a an opportunity to "stick it to a foreigner" as your post implies. I see it as a major global empire pulling an "end run" around the public and their obligation to produce a safe vehicle under the standards our system has put forth. Nothing more.



Sorry Randy, but I believe that with a little research you'll find the folly in your logic or resign yourself that the people offended and reacting are just isolationist, foreign manufacturer haters. :wacko:
 
Great points Dan and I fully understand where you are coming from. Guess I am not as eloquent as I could or should be.



I just hear too many that will say marijuana should be legalized and in the next breath say that foreign car manufacturers should be put out of business in the US.:wacko: I understand that it is popular right now to jump on the band wagon with 19 killed out of negligence, poor design, operator error, floor mats or whatever may have had a hand in the accidents, but it seems that many are more willing to bash than be a part of the solution. Lastly, due to me being in Human Resources, I hear so many that bash the insurance industries, hospitals, doctors and the such as the problem with health care. (All are a part I am sure) But they never look at themselves as parts of the problem for being poor consumers of health care. I know too many that go to a specialist when they get an ache or a pain, or to the emergency rooms when their child has a 99 degree temp.



Mac and the boys at the General are doing their part to more than even the playing field. They have some great models out and are fighting some years long bad press.;) Don't get me started on the press!!!!!!!!!!! So unlike the insurance industry and health care in general, Mac and the boys ARE doing their part and they don't need to bash the competition. They are too good for that and so let their product show that. Bashing Toyota when they are down is what has happened to the GM giant for decades by the want-to-bes. None of it is good for the long term in my book. So if we take care of ourselves become good consumers in health care and auto buying etc... the good will overcome. Sorry but this is a hot button with me, like Unions! :angry:



MY $.02!



Randy
 
Mac is not bashing he is stating the truth, I on th eother hand will bash Toyota for lying to the entire nation.



If you think GM is leveling the playing field you are so mistaken. They are still fighting an uphill battle. Find out how much an Impala costs in Japan....the tariffs added to US autos in japan vs tariffs to japanese cars here is staggering. I think Mac quoted $60k (us) for an Imapala in Japan....you tell me thats level.



We have allowed it to happen.
 
"We have allowed it to happen." That is not entirely accurate enough... Our politicians of both parties have allowed it to happen...



And, now we are at a significant disadvantage in negotiating with our "friends".
 
As much as it seems too idealistic to say it, we elected them, we allowed it.



But I agree.....and it is (as you stated) BOTH parties.
 
I don't feel like answering this tonight. Maybe because I had at least a four page response and was ready to click 'reply' when I wanted to browse back up and see what someone said. When I saw that I decided to look and see where they lived. I did and then when I got back to what I was writing it was gone!

I'll try to remember everything I wrote and post it here tomorrow, BWAHAHA Fat Chance. All it can do is p.o. more people, so be it..



Uncle Billy
 
I like my Chebbys....I have only know chevys fords or mopars..I am happy with the fact that they are the true american cars,,,I can at least blamb americans when they go to POS..HA
 
I hate when that happens Unca Billy! And this stuff doesnt make me PO'd! One thing good about this country is to able to say what you want or feel (well ALMOST..lol) and be civil and respectful of the other persons opinion. Even if its wrong! lol
 
Amazing how suddenly GM's (owned by the US Gov't) biggest competitors are being stomped on by the US government. Anyone else smell a rat? Auto companies have recalls all of the time, why is this one such a BIG HUGE deal when the last numerous GM recalls were barely a blip on the radar? Toyota has had FAR fewer recalls than the domestic companies.



Proud, amazingly trouble free Toyota owner - 125,000 miles and runs like new.
 
Hey Mini, I found that happens to me here a lot. You can't go away from what you have typed and hope to see it still there when you try to get back to it. I learned that quite awhile ago and started writing my posts in Microsoft Word and when I was finally ready to post would cut and paste to 'here' but this time I forgot and the second I went away from the message part I KNEW I had screwed up:eek: Nothing new for me lately Mini:wacko:



Uncle Billy
 
I have to agree with Coast2Coast, I have been a Mechanic since 1976 working on most all makes and models of cars and trucks. Toyotas have allways been 1 of the most reliable vehicles out there. I will admit though I love the domestic cars of today. Without poorly designed intake gaskets, fuel injectors, fuel pumps, Opel powered Chevys and Saturns and piss poor truck rear ends from GM, 1/2 my buisness would be gone. Ford has thier issues also with coils, plugs blowing out, exhaust studs breaking, rolling over exploders, blowing up Pintos, etc. Oh and lets not forget the EV-1's that burned houses down or the Fieros that burned up along the side of the road. There is no such thing as a truly American car any more and probably never will be again.

For the record I do drive US cars - 79 Dodge Magnum, 95 Astro Van, and 96 Saturn. However I would not buy a new vehicle from any manufacturer unless they go back to a throttle cable.
 
...why is this one such a BIG HUGE deal when the last numerous GM recalls were barely a blip on the radar?



I'd like to answer your question with a question: If it was your child killed (+18 more and counting) by known manufacturing problems that the builder was aware of and did nothing about, would you honestly feel it was no "BIG HUGE deal"??!! :unsure: :blink:



Anyone else smell a rat?



Yes! Toyota, for their conscious hiding and delay of the repairs for these known, deadly problems. Great question! ;)



It is a sad state of affairs in our country when the lives (and deaths) of fellow Americans are easily pushed aside so others can thump their chest and praise their brand loyalty. There isn't a machine made by man that is flawless, but there is only one creature that can be truly heartless...MAN. We surely are our own worst enemy when we act in defense of our pride before[/i] the deaths of our fellow Americans. :(
 
OMG!!!...so now, this Toyota recall is a Gov't conspiracy??? :lol: Now THAT's some potent crack you're smokin' there!!;) So this June when GM pays back their treasury loan in FULL (4 years EARLY!!),...and when the Gov't sells off their stake in the upcoming IPO and MAKES a TON of profit from their investment (WHEN was the last time the US Gov't ever MADE a profit on ANYTHING?????) Wait,...don't tell me,..that will be because Toyota did something brilliant right??? yyeaahhhhh!!!



This thread has run it's course, I have to bow out when stupidity takes the place of facts..



WOW,...to think that the worlds LARGEST and most expensive automotive recall in HISTORY is the brainchild of the US Treasury and GM??!!.....unbelievable!! .....adios.



 
Update - Now 34 deaths attributed to these known problems with more being investigated. How many Americans must die before we come together as a nation under the same flag and say STOP!!! :angry:



 
they have stopped producing/selling but when will the people look at this juat like they did when the lead was in the chinese toys? in my mind its the same thing
 
LMAO!!! It hurts being on the receiving end doesn't it??!!:eek::rolleyes: Supporters of the empire gotta deal with the good, the BAD and the UGLY whether they like it or not!!! (and you don't have to rely on them for your family's survival either,..your interest goes as far as your ego and the 2 vehicles in your driveway,..unless you own a bunch of stock!) We're only seeing the tip of the iceberg too...'Yota is in DEEP doodoo,...especially if they're busted for covering up a known electrical problem with their ECM's....that's blatant negligence and will lead to a tsunami of lawsuits and additional recalls. As far as their CEO Akio Toyoda weaseling out of the congressional hearings next week?? How's that for standing up for your company!?...NOT a good message to send Mr. Toyoda! 'Yota is going to pay the price for piss poor management decisions JUST like GM did, so don't get on my case about picking on Yota...what goes around comes around!! When you put profit and market share before safety and quality....sooner or later it will come back to stomp on your grapes...AND,..GM did NOT knowingly cover up issues that KILL people!!:angry: The Generals NEW sun is breaking the horizon and is going to rise higher and brighter than it's ever been before (just wait until you start hearing and reading the news about what's coming!!). Toyota's sun is setting....they're in for some loooong dark days!! Been there,..experienced it,......I'd rather be where we're at now!!;):rolleyes:



PS:...Here's a little tip for EVERYONE,...BUY GM stock when the IPO comes later this year....it will be the BEST investment you've ever made in your life!!;) TRUST ME!!!



Carry on!
 
Oh Mac, I am NOT a Toyota supporter by any means! It has nothing to do with my ego and I don't have two of them in my driveway! I don't know where you got that from? I bought a Tundra a year and a half ago and explained why I did so. The intersection where I bought that Tundra has a Toyota Dealership, a Chevrolet Dealership and a Ford Dealership. When I went looking for a good used automatic truck I stopped in at the Chevy dealership first. They didn't have anything on the lot that looked interesting but I didn't get to know what they had because Nancy and I literally could not get waited on. The salesmen inside the building seemed more interested in watching something on TV and eating donuts than waiting on anyone. We walked across the street to the Ford dealership and just about the same thing happened there. We were finally waited on and I showed some interest in a 2005 F-150 that was loaded. The price was a little high but the reason I turned it down was because when they had checked my credit and found everything near perfect, when I mentioned a test drive he went and got tags and then asked Nancy if she wanted to sit in the front or back? I asked him why he was going with us and he said it was company policy. When I said Bull Chit, he stuck to that story so Nancy and I got out of that truck and left. We then saw a Tundra across the street with a really nice A.R.E. cap on the body and a really nice "bedrug" in it, V-8, Automatic, etc..Everything the others offered only a lot of dollars less. When I asked about a test drive the salesman came out and put tags on it, and gave me the keys. When I asked when he wanted it back he told me it was already late Friday afternoon so why don
 
I really hate It that american workers are paying for the mistake that was not there fault,,I believe that It will all work out..One thing for sure,Any profit usually goes to Japan..But the paychecks come here...Hell Everything Is made In some other country,Even me. Kentucky,You can't get much father away than that.BWAHAHAHAHAHHAAH...JR
 
Ford took government money BEFORE the fall happened to boost their credit line in advance. 99% of the American public does not know this.



So you have written off Chevy trucks because of a lazy salesman on a Friday afternoon on a USED car lot? Plus your neighbors problems with a truck that you dont know the year of (well I am pretty certain you dont know his maintenance history either).



Written off Ford because of a dealership company policy? Here in Detroit they would be FOOLISH to hand the keys to anyone and say "Bring it back Monday" unless that person knew the owner of the dealership.....there would be a line of people "claiming" to want to buy a vehicle and a chop shop buying them for $100 ea!



Dont get me wrong, I feel for anyone that loses a job because of no fault of theirs (mgmt decisions), but I also think its wrong to sell foreign badged vehicles here without tariffs. Thats the only way to level the playing field Unca Billy.



OBAMA Catering to the UAW??? Cmon man....the UAW lost a TON over this.



Also keep an eye on your Tundra frame....is it rusting?





 
Ford took WHAT government money? And you're right, the American public does NOT know about this. And like you've told me, I have to see some citations on this or I won't believe it.

No, I didn't rule Chevy trucks out because of a lazy salesman, read what I wrote again.

It was a new car dealership with used cars, like most of them in the country. And it wasn't one salesman, it was a GROUP of lazy Chevrolet salesmen.

I said my neighbors Chevrolet truck was 2007, I think...It was either a 2006 or 2007 and because I didn't remember what year doesn't make me an idiot or matter at all! Sorry I don't exactly remember what year it was. What I do know is that he is a certified G.M. Mechanic and had nothing but trouble until he finally stopped dealing with the Zone manager and filed court papers.

Why in the world would anybody, except maybe a complete idiot, buy a vehicle that he wasn't allowed to take for a test drive without a salesman sitting next to him? Almost every car expert in the world tells you to get the car/truck checked out by your mechanic before buying a used vehicle! How do you do that with a salesman accompanied test drive? I beleive what that Toyota dealership did was how you sell cars and get a public following. They have with me.

This isn't Detroit Mini and most people, who have given the dealer their driver's licenses to make copies of and also have their own vehicle sitting in their lot, and who is 62 years old expect to be able to take a test drive with their wife and without any salesmen. If not I will NEVER buy a car from any of them. If all you have to do in Detroit is just say I want a private test drive and they let them, it would be obvious that they were all brain dead ex Detroit Lions!

What did I say about Obama? I think any reasonable thinking adult would wonder about G.M., Government Motors. And no, my Tundra is not rusting but what a couple of you here have done, with comments such as those, is make me swear I will NEVER buy another Chevrolet as long as I live, just as Nancy and I was going to sell her minivan and get, probably, an Impala.

Mini, you and Mac who I happen to think a lot of, should never use terms about a level playing field because you don't know what it means. Anyone who doesn't adhere to what

either of you say about the auto industry is bound going to catch a lot of crap. THAT'S not very level and your last sentence about how I should keep an eye on my Tundra and rust was a B/S thing to say. When and if you can show me that you don't buy or have anything except what has been made in America, I will start listening to you again and I don't think there is anyone here who can doubt my patriotism and I'll compare my credentials with anyone. Now, we have been here before over this same S.O.B. subject but if you want to get nasty about it, I'll play, just tell me the rules. ENOUGH! DAMNIT!!





Bill
 
Hey Billy I had an Impala and I truly did love It,If you drive on you will be Impressed,,,But only the SS...I have friends that really do like there Toyotas But you can't out drag a Chebby.......This Thread Is DEAD ...Lets beat up on Hondas now..I do Hate Volkswagons though..You have to go to the dealer to change the oil on them..sealed system.Dam what about Toro mowers Oh wait I have had mine for 15 years never a problem...:D
 
QUOTE Given the Obama administration's catering to one of its favorite special interest groups, the United Auto Workers union, END QUOTE



I just asked if your frame was rusting Unca....dont get your panties in a bunch over some internet discussions!!!! I was sincere in my asking, it was not meant to be a jab or an insult. There MANY documented problems with it and the way Toyota has been as of late with the recalls, the NHTSA is investigating I wouldnt doubt that this will be the next thing you hear about from the Toyota camp. I hope not, but if they have been covering SERIOUS safety issues so far I would not put it past them.



Read up on Ford at the same time that Ford Jr. gave up the reigns of the company and hired Mulally from Boeing...I beleive it was in 2006 that Mulally was hired.



QUOTE FROM A GOOGLE SEARCH "Upon his arrival at Ford, Mulally's intent was to focus the company on its core brand, Ford, and to divest other brands they owned such as Volvo and Jaguar. His plan was to invest in the long term future of the core brand and, sensing the recession that eventually came, he established $23 billion in lines of credit within 90 days of taking the CEO job." END QUOTE



$23 billion in credit lines from lenders that were federally backed. The same thing would have happened for GM and Chrysler if the banks were in decent shape but we all know that they werent. Thats why they went directly to the Govt. for loans, not buyouts. Mulally borrowing the money will go down as the main decision that Mulally made to turn Ford around BEFORE the rest of the industry got shut out by the banks.



As far as the test drives, it may be true in your part of the country....but as we see the lines blurred between nations, we also see them blurred between states. The dealership may be part of a national chain or group of dealers that have places in other states and to protect themselves from theft, insurance claims, etc. the corporation may have that policy. Heck I would bet that their insurance premiums are cheaper because they require a salesman to be in the car during the test drive.



You do realize that DEALERS are not PART of the car companies? Just as with boats a good/close dealer is sometimes actually a better choice than boat brand....and I will admit that the US autos have had (and still may) some pretty bad dealers....thats how USED CAR SALESMEN got the bad rep! This is also part of the reason that the US Autos NEEDED to get rid of some dealers....it actually has helped around here. BTW you can arrange for your mechanic to check out a car here in Detroit. You have to schedule it with the dealer and a dealer employee will drop your car off and either wait for it, or come back to get it from a reputiable business.





I am sorry that you feel, based on discussions on the internet, that you will never give Chevy a look. Dont add Ford to that. You do know that I DO NOT work in automotive in this area. I have never liked the cyclical trends of the industry and have made a decision to stay out of automotive engineering jobs almost my entire adult life (when it was possible).....



With that I will let this die, unless you want to continue to keep it civil.

 
Ford is up to the eyeballs in DEBT,..they owe something to the tune of $34 BILLION to creditors....they mortgaged their existence on a huge "gamble" of a short recession.



GM's LOANS will be paid back in FULL no later than JUNE of 2010...if NOT by the end of MARCH 2010. There are already several ad's in the works where the Chairman will publicly THANK the American People for the use of their money. How classy is THAT?! We "BORROWED" billions....we had 5 years to pay it back....and we will have paid it back in ONE YEAR. This will be THEE most successful corporate turn-around story in US History!!When we offer an IPO for stock...it will be up to the UST to determine when they will sell their shares..we will owe the UST and the American people ZEEERROOO!! It will have all been paid back!! The gov't can hang on to their shares as an investment, or they can sell whatever they want, whenever they want and get their money...it's THEIR choice. Call us "Government Motors" if you want..you're free to question our reliability and quality all you want...we now have 11 vehicles in the "recommended BUY" categories in the leading consumer rags...more than ANY OTHER MFGR...but you better get your shots in quick....you only have 1-3 more mos. left before that's no longer true in any context!! :rolleyes:



oh..and make sure you keep tabs on the 'Yota hearings this week and next....keep yourself informed.;)
 
I'm staying out of the mud-slinging and chest thumping, for the most part. I am certainly happy that both GM and Chrysler employees have a job to go to and products to build and sell.



Tex
 
Mini
QUOTE Given the Obama administration's catering to one of its favorite special interest groups, the United Auto Workers union, END QUOTE



I DID NOT SAY THAT and you keep insisting that I did!



That quote was from The Washington Examiner - Feb 14th., 2010



I don't know how to make it any clearer. I don't believe the "rust" comment was a compassionate warning for me. My statement about never buying another Chevrolet sticks. Anyone on this site who buys anything except from the Big Three always get's their head beat in by Mac closely followed by you! I have mentioned here numerous times that I have always been a huge Chevy car fan and Ford truck fan. Just go back and look, I even posted pictures. But, because it was a GREAT deal, by a dealership that paid great attention to their customer and what he wanted, I went ahead and bought a used Toyota Tundra I have been lambasted ever since I posted the pictures of it. Every time it has been brought up I can expect a bunch of crap and I got tired of it.

You have misread almost everything I have written and Mac just can't let it go. In each of his posts when he puts on that he's trying to be sincere, he'll end it with some snide remark.

I'm ending it right here Mini. Unless of course someone reloads and fires.



I'm, sorry.. Uncle Billy



 
I love this board,Where else can we all agree to disagree....It's a great bunch of people and everyone has an opinion,,Billy you have been thru It all,So remember the Motto from the 101st It's everyman for himself,BWHAHAHHAHA...I believe you all have had your say,,Now lets go after something new like the Ranger I have for sale (dead horse as Tox says) Besides billy It must be someones B-Day...Love to all JR....Buy American If you can find one.:D:D:D

JR
 
Bill -
I DID NOT SAY THAT and you keep insisting that I did!



You posted that as support to your position in your post, unless the internet sprites added that without your knowledge. :lol: There also was no insistance on Mini's part. (That would imply he made multiple retorts to your quoted statement.) All he did was respond to your posted article. :blink:



Wow...I look back on all of this and try and sift fact through the BS. So, if someone responds to someone else's quoted article as a basis (yet extrememly frail) for their argument, they're being "lambasted"??? And everyone should just accept one person's posted article, inuendo and/or heresay and NOT use readily available mainstream information that has been fact checked by a plethora of news sources??? :huh:



FACT - Tundras have been involved in a national recall for their frames rusting at an alarmingly accelerated rate creating MAJOR issues for their owners. Whether you took it compassionately or not, IT IS FACT:



http://www.autoevolution.com/news/toyota-tundra-rust-recall-official-13683.html



http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2009/04/27/toyota-tundra-frame-rust/



http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/24/toyota-extends-tundra-rust-recall-to-include-2000-03-models-tot/



Shifting gears, so to speak :lol: , I have NEVER witnessed Mac or Mini bashing anyone's vehicle purchases other than the good-hearted ribbing that has taken place since Ford got their first automotive rival. There will always be a Ford vs. Chevy (or any other mfr. V. mfr.) type "mine is better" pride squabble as long as Americans have that choice to make from a large diversity of product. How anyone can mistake FACTS presented as "some snide remark", I just can't figure out. I do know that since the very early days of our site, Mac and Mini have always been at the forefront HELPING people, not launching insults in a vain and self-serving attempt to support their vehicle purchase. However anyone wants to spend their money is their business. You can't make people like your purchase as much as you do, but moreover, you can't change facts to support a position and not expect to get called on it. That's just the way the world is. This post went from the statement of FACTS concerning a major foreign automotive manufacturer involved in the deaths of over THREE DOZEN Americans to a petty, "don't tell me things that may hurt my feelings." :wacko:



Maybe, just maybe, if we all as Americans put our ridiculous vanity aside, contact our senators and congressmen telling them to focus on the matter at hand, Toyota will correct these issues and Americans will stop dying over cost-cutting to boost the foreign based manufacturer's bottom line. :eek:



I'm going fishing, so I'll check back later next week to see how many ateries I clogged or blew with my post. :lol: Everybody play nice 'til then! BWAAAAAAA!!!! :lol::p:wacko::cool:;):lol:
 
Dan I think you hit It...Billy Is a MAJOR Part of this Site..MAC Is been more help than we kan NO(it's thye hillbilly in me) Mac Is always there for a great rebate on GM....Billy Is a True Hero most don't know 101st In Viet Nam..We do have alot of hero's on this site

,Some are serving now some have served,

,WE have the best site on the Internet here,,We have a variety of boats,Owners,Insite,and help..Most sites are really a joke..I have stayed with this because of the Brains the people on here have and they constant effort to help us needy people In our times of need...I really think this was blown out of context...I know this will always come out who has the best vehicle( Well I probably purchase more than everyone on here combined and faster to) I say Barrett Jackson next year.....BWHAHAHAHAHA Of course Tequila does that to humans SO to all I say what was the topic of this duiscussion????????
 
I am sorry you still feel that way Billy and I apologize for you saying that about Obama. It was indeed a quote from an article and not your words.



Thanks for the kind words Dan....ok, off to bed. Have to get up before the sun to drive to Bass Pro in Foxborough MA to insult more people...lol



I am kidding Unca Billy. Seriously I am!!!!



 
I am too Mini, and really I am and I hope you believe it.. I didn't want any of this to go as far as it did and I hope it doesn't affect our friendhip in any way. This is for Mac also.



Thanks Mini,



Uncle Billy



 
There sales aren't slowing here any,I have a friend that sells them and he said he couldn't believe how well all the cars are selling,,Thats all brands, they are a multiple dealer....
 
No worries Unca Billy!!! All good in the hood!



Well it will be once the tide shifts and we get more manufacturing on US soil! :)



 
I was going to. and was advised to NOT respond to the post by Dan J.., but felt I had to no matter what.

First Dan, you stuck your nose in with a personal attack where it was not wanted or asked for. Mac, Mini and I have had this argument before and still somehow remain friends. That's no doubt because no outside throwing gas on the fire from unwanted influences was allowed to affect us.

Your 'teaching' about how quotations are or should be used deserves an 'F' to you the teacher. You may 'cite' a newspaper article, which I did. But I did NOT quote anything that was said. If you don't know the difference, you need to go back too school. Mini used that article as 'my quote' twice. To me that is insisting and he also apologized to me for that! Who are you to decide what's frail and what isn't? Also, please look up lambasted. I have defended my choice of purchase at least three times in a year. I believe that adjective fits extremely well. As for the rust issue, who cares if it's a 'fact' or not! I took it as a slight to me, not whether it was fact or not.

I must present that you don't know what a snide remark is either! Did you personally ask Mini or Mac what they meant by anything they said or ask me just how I took the remarks?

Then once again, you should have just butted out and minded you own business! Mac and Mini don't need your help and they also know where I'm coming from because we've had this same discussion at least three other times! Where were you then?

I too believe I have been here for quite awhile and have helped anyone I could with whatever I knew.
launching insults in a vain and self-serving attempt to support their vehicle purchase.
It's statements like that attack that made me answer your post! I didn't launch a damned thing. I responded to what I believe was an attack on me and what I had purchased. Also, whether you like it or not, the Tundra was rated as the best or one of the best trucks available in 2004. I don't care if anyone likes my purchase or not and that was never the center of any of this. This was at least the third time I've been through this same argument and 33,000. Americans directly work for Toyota and over 100,000 indirectly and when someone seems to jump in joy when any manufacturer is having problems will also hear from me. I also don't remember changing any facts but I will bet you will be able to read all of this, take your sweet time, and research what you want to say next.

involved in the deaths of over THREE DOZEN Americans to a petty, "don't tell me things that may hurt my feelings."

That Mr. Dan, is as petty and nasty as anyone can get and also as rotten a thing as anyone could say! I will hasten to say that nobody else on this site thinks I would take up for my truck more than I care for human lives! BTW, NOTHING has been proven about the causes of those deaths and you know it. The woman who testified at congress that she was going over 100 m.p.h. with both feet pushing as hard as she could on the brake and also had the emergency brake on was a LIAR! And while all that was happening she had the mental acuity to call a family member on the phone! Now, for your homework, look into just why it would be impossible for her to have the brakes flat on the floor but the car kept accelerating. Because, it IS impossible.

Calling me petty while using fake quotes shows you don't know how to use them again and that sentence also shows you're far away from me. Your entire post was an extraordinary insult to me as an American and human being and really nothing more than a major suck-up to Mac and Mini!! Mac, Mini and I have gotten through this and I think we did it without anyone being as mean and rotten as you were in your post.

I will NOT answer this, I don't care what you write. I do know that there is nothing you can do to really hurt me either mentally, you don't have enough ammo, or physically where you REALLY don't have enough ammo.



Nuff said.. I regret HAVING to write this but I will not tolerate a personal attack especially from someone on the sidelines just sticking his nose in. I also regret and apologize to all of the members here who will probably read this but I felt, and feel, that Dan just went way too far with his comments.



Again, I'm sorry,U

Uncle Billy



Ps: I'm sorry again.. I thought this was going to be a new post and don't know what happened?











[/re: Wow,....even MORE problems for Toyota by Dan J.,2/27/2010 10:19 ET

Bill - Quote:

I DID NOT SAY THAT and you keep insisting that I did!

You posted that as support to your position in your post, unless the internet sprites added that without your knowledge. There also was no insistance on Mini's part. (That would imply he made multiple retorts to your quoted statement.) All he did was respond to your posted article.



Wow...I look back on all of this and try and sift fact through the BS. So, if someone responds to someone else's quoted article as a basis (yet extrememly frail) for their argument, they're being "lambasted"??? And everyone should just accept one person's posted article, inuendo and/or heresay and NOT use readily available mainstream information that has been fact checked by a plethora of news sources???



FACT - Tundras have been involved in a national recall for their frames rusting at an alarmingly accelerated rate creating MAJOR issues for their owners. Whether you took it compassionately or not, IT IS FACT:



http://www.autoevolution.com/news/toyota-tundra-rust-recall-official-13683.html



http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2009/04/27/toyota-tundra-frame-rust/



http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/24/toyota-extends-tundra-rust-recall-to-include-2000-03-models-tot/



Shifting gears, so to speak , I have NEVER witnessed Mac or Mini bashing anyone's vehicle purchases other than the good-hearted ribbing that has taken place since Ford got their first automotive rival. There will always be a Ford vs. Chevy (or any other mfr. V. mfr.) type "mine is better" pride squabble as long as Americans have that choice to make from a large diversity of product. How anyone can mistake FACTS presented as "some snide remark", I just can't figure out. I do know that since the very early days of our site, Mac and Mini have always been at the forefront HELPING people, not launching insults in a vain and self-serving attempt to support their vehicle purchase. However anyone wants to spend their money is their business. You can't make people like your purchase as much as you do, but moreover, you can't change facts to support a position and not expect to get called on it. That's just the way the world is. This post went from the statement of FACTS concerning a major foreign automotive manufacturer involved in the deaths of over THREE DOZEN Americans to a petty, "don't tell me things that may hurt my feelings."



Maybe, just maybe, if we all as Americans put our ridiculous vanity aside, contact our senators and congressmen telling them to focus on the matter at hand, Toyota will correct these issues and Americans will stop dying over cost-cutting to boost the foreign based manufacturer's bottom line.



I'm going fishing, so I'll check back later next week to see how many ateries I clogged or blew with my post. Everybody play nice 'til then! BWAAAAAAA!!!!
 
Mr. Barham - I won't take the time to disect your most recent ill-conceived, misdirected, factually incorrect and rambling manifesto above, but I will always defend my friends from any accusations unfairly levied at them, as I choose it to be "my business" to support my friends. (You certainly won't have to worry about that. :lol::p:wacko: ) You somehow believe that a Guttenburg sized post somehow elevates your intelligence on a subject, however, you self-defeat yet another vain attempt to prove yourself as the "end all and say all" in any matter you so choose to self-appoint as moderator. I will give you no quarter when so blatantly wrong on so many topics contained in this thread, or any other topics here for that fact. How you see me as "on the sidelines" in this topic, since my posts in this thread precedes your multi-factually devoid meanderings, is beyond my obviously limited abilities and "eju-ma-kashun" when compared to your vast knowledge on all points contained in this thread and the known cosmos. :lol: Babble away, Mr. Barham, but when you are wrong, a lengthy, skewed, and personal attacking post will not make it right. I never made any attempt to teach you about quotes nor anything else, nor would I make any frail attempt to do so. (An old saying about teaching a hog to sing comes to mind. :lol::p ) Which concludes my rebuttal to your latest personal attack, now directed towards myself. (Do I see a pattern forming? Hmmm.... :rolleyes: ) I do not wish to change anything about you nor your fantasy world where your above statements have some foothold in reality. Statements made stand on their own by all who make them. I do wholeheartedly agree with your last statement made. You are sorry. :D:p:cool::lol::lol::lol:
 
Gentleman, please. We can debate these issues with honest discourse, some humor, and good will towards others.



Otherwise, I'll ban all of you scrubs and just come here to read my own posts. :)



On the braking issue: Billy, I think what you are missing is that at full throttle, the brake's hyrdaulics are at their weakest due to the lack of vacuum pressure from the engine operating at wide open throttle. The brake pads might be touching the disks, but without much oomph. Emergency brakes typically have fairly weak mechanical leverage. The lack of pressure on the braking surfaces, plus the inertia of the car at very high speed is enough to allow the engine to continue to overcome the brakes and keep the car at a high speed.

 
Disclaimer: This poster's input has been known to increased irritibilty with some users. Nausea, aggression and fatigue may follow. Please consult your doctor before reading. :D



Rich - Additionally with sustained braking at high speeds, particularly under full load, there is a "glazing" of the pads/shoes and rotor surfaces which greatly reduces and can even nullify the braking process. One of the proposed corrections for these deadly occurences is a throttle stop default when braking. (Brake applied, throttle cut to idle.) Another couple of Prius went on self-decided joy rides over the past couple of days where the braking was almost insignificant, unless those drivers, witnesses, police and investigators at the scene are all "liars" also. :rolleyes: I've attached a link for a simulated real-time depiction of similar events. ;):lol::D








http://toyotasimulator.com/
 
Now if'n there IS to be a cat fight, I aint watching those two go at it.... :)



 
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