anyone else sick of this crap

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scott lewis

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I am so sick of businesses who are afraid of their employees saying Merry Chrstmas to customers. Can't call it a C**********tree it is a Holiday tree. SIlent Night Quiet night. AARGHHHHH



It is still Christmas and this is Still America.



Anyone else fed up???



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Amen brother! I own a business and if I offend you by saying Merry Christmas then dont come back is all I can say! Jesus is the only reason for this season and if you have a problem with that then TUFF! My buffalo nickle worth.



Jeff oh yeah.... MERRY CHRISTMAS.!!!!!!
 
I agree.



Seems like to me we are making rules and laws for the few not the majority. Not very Democratic if you ask me.
 
Boy am I with you on this one! Being so sensitive to making sure I say "Happy Holidays" while at work instead of "Merry Christmas" has carried over unintentionally outside of work. At this point it really has had an impact on this time of year as a Christian ... not being able to publicly express my sentiments explicitly. I have decided to say Merry Christmas this year (if I can actually get over this phobia) and let those who are offended let me know and I will not wish them a Merry Christmas again. I have no problem with other religions wishing me the best in regard to their traditions ... I welcome it and find other traditions interesting.



I suspect most would not be offended with a "Merry Christmas". Not sure how this became so inappropriate over the years.
 
People better be very careful of trying to remove God or Christ from everything we do and say......he may grant them what they want....then what?
 
To have anything different than our current situation is to have a society where only one viewpoint, religion or expression is allowed. How would christians feel if Buddhism was the religion of the majority?



Personally, as a non-religious person, I am tired of having people try to cram their christianity into everything I do. This country was based on the idea of not having a national religion. Yes, God is mentioned frequently, but not the tenets of any religion. If I had a child in school, I would not want creationism or intelligent design taught, I would not want them to have to sit through a mandatory prayer.



Religion is a personal choice and should be taught at home and in churches, not in the public schools or our government. If you don't like what the schools are teaching, send your child to a religious school, or spend more time with your child at home teaching your faith.



Perhaps the owners of the stores do not want the employees to express a christianity viewpoint. You assume they do because that is what you want to hear. I prefer...



Happy Holidays!



Rich D
 
I simply try and look at it this way.



Whether it's a Christian greeting; Jewish greeting; Muslim greeting (or other religious greeting), I'll simply take it to mean that the person extending cordial greetings to me represents their hope that I will enjoy the time period/holiday - regardless.



I spent several years in N. Africa, in a decidely Muslim country. Those that I knew, didn't typically offer christian greetings to me during religious times (namely Christmas and Easter). On occasion, those that I knew better (friends or acquintances) would offer muslim greetings to me. It was their way of extending friendship and greetings to me in a very personal way, even though we both understood that we came from very different religious cultures. It was not an attempt to 'convert' me, but in many ways an attempt to show respect.



I try and be tolerant of many different views and customs. If someone wants to offer me 'Happy Holidays', I simply accept it and move on - regardless of their reasons. Same for other greetings that may be based upon either cultural or religious views.



Tex











 
A good though somewhat ridiculous argument. How does saying Merry Christmas have anything to do with one viewpoint, religion or expression? Merry means joyful, gay and

Christ Mas means a celebration of Christs birthday, like Michael Mas, etc.. What's wrong with that. Do you hear Christians crying about people saying Happy Kwanza any other celebration cramed down their throats?

I'm also tired of people who say "I am tired of having people try to cram their christianity into everything I do." You know that's not true. I live in the same country as you do and have rarely had anyone "cram" their views on me unless I showed interest and welcomed it.

You're right in saying this country was based on not having a National religeon but it WAS based on Christian tenets to the point of being fined and even going to jail for not attending church.

Why are you afraid of creationism being taught. Why are you afraid of a little prayer? When prayer was in schools we didn't have anything going on like Columbine did we? Why not let your children decide whether they want to hear a prayer or not? Don't forget that public schools are our schools too. Though I don't have children I pay the same taxes as you do and don't get the tax breaks you do at the end of the year. Why not put YOUR children in a school that teaches what you want them to learn, or issues you want to hide them from. Why put that onus on us?

I really don't care what you prefer. Anyone that thinks saying Merry Cristmas is somethng wrong to do is quite ignorant on the subject. You didn't seem to mind the hundreds of CRISTIAN prayers that were said for your brother-in-law when you thought he needed them. I don't remember you coming onto this site and telling the people here who do believe in God to please NOT say a prayer!

That's all I have to say and am sorry for this rant but I am so angry about this sort of thing that I could spit. Rich, I'm sorry I'm yelling at you but I just think you're wrong-headed over this. There's a happy medium somewhere isn't there?



Everyone have a MERRY CHRISTMAS!



 
This country (U.S.) was founded by a majority of Christians and their fundamental Christian values were used as guidelines for most of the laws of our land. If the minority of contrary folks don't like it, they have another God given and American right of freedom to go elsewhere without any restriction. "When in Rome....."



Merry Christmas! :D
 
Christmas is a Christian celebration, like it or not. This Country was founded on Christian beliefs however, it was also founded on giving each and every one of us our own freedom to chose what we believe and don't believe.



That said, I don't think it's right for the non-believers to try and take away the name of this fantastic celebration or try and re-name it so they aren't offended or emotionally scared and need to go back to the shrink! If you're not into Christmas, there's still 364 shopping days left in the year, pick one!



Would changing that name of Christmas really make everyone feel better about the "Holidays" or would it just make it more socially acceptable for you to share in a Christian Holiday just for the gifts? Is it really about the gifts you receive or the gifts you give? For all of you that are in it for the gifting, just remember the greatest gift ever given was the gift of Salvation and had nothing to do with a new reel or rod! This Holiday is purely about the celebration of Christ, His birth and His gift to all of us, acknowledged or not.



What would happen if we tried to change the name or true meaning on a few of the other Holidays? How about Memorial Day, Martin Luther King, Mothers Day etc.???



My kid's school just had a "harvest festival". I guess we're not even supposed to use the words Thanksgiving anymore either.



Pretty sad.



Merry Christmas,



Chad L. Dwyer



 
Dang, I had a more eloquent reply typed, but got pulled away and timed out.



Mike, you are right, I was assuming.



Chad, I don't think it is about renaming Christmas, I think it is about extending the same respect to the other religions.



Bill, It is all a matter of personal choice and freedom of choice. Many people choose to believe in the christian teachings, many do not. If all beliefs can be taught equally, I would welcome it, lacking that I believe none should be taught, except at home or church. If I had children, I would try and teach them to be open to all viewpoints and beliefs. In regards to my brother in law, I never asked for prayers, only for people to keep my sister and her family in their thoughts. I do, however, greatly appreciate those that cared enough to pray because they believe it can make a difference. I think it would be quite hypocritical of me to tell people not to practice their beliefs, because I feel different!



I am not offended (nor do I mean to offend) by other people's views or expression of opinion. Your opinions are as right to you as mine are to me. I am grateful we can express differences!



I am not offended by Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, or Happy Kwanza, I choose to keep all in my heart and express it by...Happy Holidays!

 
Gee, I stayed clear of this the last time this came up but find I can't this time around. Sorry to say this, but this has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with commerce. Christmas may have a religous meaning to you, but I assure you that the only religion that comes close to a merchants heart during this period is Hinduism ... as in "Holy Cow! I just rang up the receipts for today and it is a new record - keep the money flowing!" (By the way, that was a weak joke)



Making this into a religous battle is going to get some innocent person hurt by someone who is influenced into believing this is a religous war and deciding to take this into their own hands.



Respect others around you and if you truly are offended than don't go to those stores. The merchant will decide on balance who to cater to when the bottom line is calculated. I for one couldn't care less whether you say Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays - the sentiment is still the same - spread good cheer and wishes to my friends and family.



That's my two cents - feel free to stone me or ignore me or wish me a merry christmas or happy holiday and I will do the same. Bill, The Mad Kayaker

 
OK... this cuts it for me. How dare someone say I should have to send my kids to a private school because he/she (who is in the vast minority) doesn't want his/her kid to be taught what the majority of parents want? Rich...I dare say YOU should send YOUR kids to an agnostic school where they can be taught whatever it is you like. Also how dare anyone in such a vast minority DEMAND as these non believers do, that the name of a holiday be changed? If you don't believe in Christ then this is NOT a holiday you should celebrate which means you don't even have a dog in this hunt!!! :angry:Go to work that day and leave the rest of us to our Christmas celebration. NO ONE said you have to celebrate Christmas!!! Buy by God don't dare try to change it for the ones who believe because you have NO RIGHT to do so no matter what the ACLU says.

OK now i am through ranting



RW
 
RW,



Aren't you saying that my fictional kids should be taught your religious views? Public schools are paid for with the taxes from people of all faiths, not just christians. If all religions were taught equally, I would have no issue. If any view were mandatory in a public school that I did not agree with, I would send them to a private school. That brings me to another question, which tenet of christianity should be taught? Catholicism, Protestant, Greek Orthodox...



I choose to celebrate Christmas, not because it is the birthday of Christ, but because of the nature itself of the holiday, peace and goodwill to all, regardless of beliefs.



Rich D
 
We live in a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY... what this means is that our 'democratically" elected officials are representative of what thier constituants want.



We do not live in a "Majority Rules" Democracy... one thing our founding father did corectly was to frame the constitution and bill of rights in such a way that the government and/or the "majority" would NEVER be able to trounce upon the rights of the individual or the minority view point.



What does this mean? It means that even if 99.9% of the people voted that the Flying Spagghetti Monster was the one true god and that all should worship his noodliness, congress could make NO LAW concerning this... (now, we all know that it is the Holy Ravioli that is the true big cheese, but that is another debate).



No one is taking away Christmas, or any other belief by recognizing that not everyone believes the same way... No one is trouncing upon the "Christian"'s rights by saying that there are other belief systems that should be recognized.



And yes... if you want your child to have a "Fundementalist Christian Education" then by all means you should enroll that child in the school that matches that... and it is not the responsiblity of the PUBLIC school system to teach those beliefs... Doing this is not taking away your right to the public system, or your right to have your child taught as you see fit... it is however, ensuring other parents rights to choose differently.









 
Here we go....

I don't care who you are... what you do or don't believe in...

At some point in time you will wish someone would have or will take the time to tell you about how to get into heaven... don't care if you believe in heaven or hell, you will go to one or the other. JESUS Christ is the reason this topic is here... lets stop sugar coating it... trying to be politically correct... trying not to offend other religions and beliefs...I said it before and i'll say it untill i die.. Jesus Christ died for my sins, on a cross, on a hill and rose again the third day.... Unapologetically(sp)

KB
 
christmas
 
Kb's point brings up one of the main reasons I do not accept christianity as my own religion. I consider myself, and hope I am considered by others to be a good person. I do not lie, cheat, steal, or murder. I treat others with the same level of respect I have for myself. I help others when I can. But because I do not believe in the bible, or any of my other friends that choose different religions do not believe in the bible, we will not be welcome in heaven. I guess I will never understand that.



Rich D
 
OK - Rabbi Trepper here... I usualy (and smartly) stay out of these, as all of you are my friends and I respect the views of all of you, but here are my thoughts...



For businesses and private corporations, this is a free market economy and THEY can decide (with in the letter of the law) what they do. Take Lowes and the STUPID "Holiday Trees" fiasco! Even I thought that was TOTAL STUPID!! Jewish people do NOT buy Holiday Trees, so market to the RIGHT customer - Christians who buy CHRISTMAS TREES!!!. BUT, Lowes heard the customers of theirs and changed their business approach.



I personaly have no issue and will not have any impact on my shopping somewhere if the clerk says "Merry Christmas". I might say it back or say Happy Holidays. And as it does happen each year, my kids if they are with me will say quietly "but daddy, we don't celebrate Christmas" and I inform them that correct we celebrate Hannukah (which by the way is one of the LOWEST priority holidays, and is only celebrated in the western Hemisphere for Jews to try to not have their kids complain that other kids get presents, but that's another topic that I cover with my Religeous school class on Sundays) and it is not polite to correct people in public, that they are just wishing us a happy holiday season and the majority of folks in this country celebrate Christmas. Would I appreciate if they see my Chai or my Sweatshirt (says "OY to the World, Happy Hannukah!!") and said Happy Holidays or Happy Hanukah, sure, but doesn't effect me (sticks and stones...).



BUT, and sorry Dan I disagree with ya on this one "If the minority of contrary folks don't like it, they have another God given and American right of freedom to go elsewhere without any restriction. "When in Rome....." We are NOT a true Democracy where the Mob Rules the minority, that is EXACTLY what our founding fathers hated about England (governement forced religeon, majority rules). We are a Representative Republic (I think is the right words) where the minority and the majority have the same rights and voice in our government. If we don't like the laws and rules we CHANGE them, based on the constitutionality (Hopefuly) to protect the minorities WITHOUT infringing on the rights of the majority.



So, on a lighter note, when you are all drinking Egg Nog and watching your kids play with their presents on Christmas day, my family that evening will be lighting the first Chanukkah candle to start our 8 day celebration! Oh and Day after Christmas... SHOP since we have 7 more days of Chanukkah left!!! LOL

 
I don't want religion taught in public school... but i also don't want it banned from discussion either. the 1st Amendment says "congress shall make no law" regarding a state religion. As best i can tell congress has NEVER made a law holding a certain religion above or below any other. Where in there does it say that a school can't even mention religion? If we follow the non believer's logic to it's conclusion, Christmas, Easter and Thanksgiving should be banned as state sponsered hollidays altogether right? I am just frustrated i guess by the people who want to change the name of a religious holliday just because it doesn't suit their religous or non religous views. In other words i don't begrudge the Jews Honucka (however u spell it)or the Muslims Ramadah. Oh yea...it's just me but if anyone tells me happy hollidays instead of Merry Christmas while shopping...I will set the merchandise down and calmly walk out with a hearty Merry Christmas to all.

Jesus dies to save me from my sins (i hope he can really count high) and i refuse to deny Him to anyone...just my opinion and no one has to listen...another part of that 1st Amendment no one seems to think about, we have a right to speak but no one has to listen.

Oh yea Rich...it doesn't mean we can't fish together sometime.



RW



 
RW - First, I agree with the "it doesn't mean we can't fish together sometime." These are discussions and opinions, so don't let anyone take offense or change your views (unless someone sways you!! :)



Second, what would you think if you were a business owner and everyone who did NOT celebrate Christmas did the same thing "Oh yea...it's just me but if anyone tells me happy hollidays instead of Merry Christmas while shopping...I will set the merchandise down and calmly walk out with a hearty Merry Christmas to all. "??? So what if I would do the same if someone said Merry Christmas to me? That would cut a lot of businesses down in their revenue and profit margins.



thoughts???



 
Can't we just all get along and be tolerant? That is what my religion teaches me. I don't force my views on others nor do I expect others to force their views on religion on me. No one is stopping or preventing the celebration of Kwanzaa, Haunakha or any other religious holiday so don't try and alter or stop me from celebrating mine. As far as merchandising, there are cards for every holiday and for every race. I even accept that some may choose to not to believe or worship God, that is their right also. Rich you stated
But because I do not believe in the bible, or any of my other friends that choose different religions do not believe in the bible, we will not be welcome in heaven. I guess I will never understand that.

Let me put it another way, if you do not believe in God, for you there should be no heaven or hell.



Some believe that we make our own heaven and hell here on earth and that is their right also. You can't choose not to believe in the religion that created the idea of a reserved seat on the right hand of God (who rules heaven) and expect a free pass to get in at the same time. You can't have it both ways. So, if you choose not to believe (which is your right) and live your life in accordance with society (don't confuse law abiding with religion) your reward will be whatever you choose it to be in whatever you believe.



I draw the line when the reward for blowing yourself up (as well as women and children) in the name of Allah gets you 70 virgins. And that is no disrespect to practicing Muslims. I have dabbled in the Coran and they (radicals) are as far off base as David Koresh was with the bible. Otherwise I pray for humanity as a whole and practice tolerance.



TOXIC
 
The minority are RULING and trouncing on the majority, stripping majority rights at an alarming rate.



Name one right that has been taken away from the majority...



Name what right has been infringed upon by recognizing other's beliefs??



Last I checked, It's still Christmas... just some institutions are trying 'harder' to recognize that not all celebrate Christmas as Christmas... many of them are making PLENTY of mistakes along the way...



Lastly:



Christmas is a Religous Holiday... it is not an "American Holiday" (to say it was would be to ignore the fact that it was created way before the first settlers came to these shores).



It was not (originally) the celebration of Christ's Birht... It was originally a day of "mass" (or however the Catholics spell/use it)... Christ's Mass... Get it?



It is a Federally 'Recognized" Holiday...which means, IMHO, that State/Gov't Offices can be closed in recognition, not of the holiday itself, but instead of the observence of the holiday ("Holy Day") by the many workers... closing the offices on that day does not infringe upon the rights of the 'non-believers' nor does it give them any additional rights... non -believers enjoy a day off just like anyone else.



Thanksgiving is a fully American Holiday.. and has no overt Religous overtones (like Christmas)... but it's recognition is still entirely a choice... you can choose to observe it or not... that is your right.



Now, the question becomes... when does it take to recognize a 'new' federal holiday.. and just for yucks, lets chose the Ramadan (spelling??) holy day.. the last day of Ramadan is the equivalant (in religous terms) of Christian's Easter/Christmas... at what point does it get it's recognition from a FEDERAL level?



That is what some of the debate is about... it isn't about "taking away" rights... it's about EQUAL REPRESENTATION under the LAW... which means that possibly some of our 'traditions' need to change based upon our current culture... it isnt about stripping away a right to "Christmas"... no where has that happened... no one is being jailed for Celebrating Christmas... and while I find the cartoon above humerous, it is, (I HOPE) an exageration.

 
Mike - I agree we are moving WAY too far Left of center on all of this, but for every LEFT suggested/moved we get a similar RIGHT (take God BACK out of pledge of allegeince and PUT intelligent design IN our schools). As a moderate libertarian, i wish we could get either sides "extreme's" to find the common ground we seemed to have in the past.



I don't want to side track this point on the OTHER policial issues on both sides, so I'll just say - from a business perspective we each make our own decisions and have the opportunity to contact the management if we are not satisfied.



On the government side i'd prefer to see a mixed display if a holiday display is put up. Actualy what id like to see if a Christmas display during christmas, and Easter one during Easter, a Rosh Hashana one, Yom Kippur, Passover... :)
 
Trep, et al - No offense taken, as I hope you will feel about my response. I do not force nor habor any government attempt to enforce a particular religion. However, I refuse to allow a select few to dictate their opinion as law over the masses, governing how a specific religion may/may not be openly professed. (Pledge of Allegiance, school prayer, etc..) This was also the emphasised belief in the founding fathers of this country and the laws created by that benefit. (It is also the reason I shell out a ton in taxes, yet have my child in a private Christian based school.) As far as no law should dictate a specific religion, I'm all aboard with that. On the same degree of emphasis, I'll renounce my citizenship and move my family to a more tolerant social climate when the first law is passed removing the Christian basis of our great nation. I have friends of many faiths (or faithless) of which I highly respect. (That includes you, little buddy! LOL!) I only ask that mine be accepted for what it is, the faith that founded our great nation. When people like the ACLU, amongst others, use these sacred beliefs as fodder for their legal cannons, I feel assaulted and will defend my beliefs, as well I would defend yours or another friends faith. I would prefer that all faiths should be respected and preferrably rejoiced, not singled out as a hinderence to those select few who feel the simple mention of open belief is "a violation of their freedom of religion". Again, I wholeheartedly recomend that anybody feeling violated to that degree invoke their right to freedom of travel and find a social climate that fosters to their belief (or lack thereof).



P.S. I apologize for my earlier oversight in wishing you and yours the most Blessed Hannukah. Maseltov! (And a Holiday wish of peace, love and glory to all!)
 
Rich, You have a GOD given right to chose. Religion is never forced on anyone. You can make a choice to believe now... or later... one day you will know the truth!!

It is your choice to either seek out, or not...

These are my beliefs, i will live, and dye by them if needed!

that is my choice!



Take a GOOD look around you the next time your on the water.... tell me who created what you see!!

I'm not shoving this down your throat... just trying to tell you something important!!!!
 
Big Buddy Dan, no offense taken ever from you! now a ride in that Tracker and see how 150 Horses feel under my butt DRIVING - THAT i'll take!! LOL



"I refuse to allow a select few to dictate their opinion as law over the masses, governing how a specific religion may/may not be openly professed. (Pledge of Allegiance, school prayer, etc..)" I would agree 100% and the other way that allowing the majority to govern how a specific religion may/may not be openly professed.



I see this again in 2 lights, business (its up to the owner to decide how/when/where to advertise anything religeous or to cater to or not a certain democraphic... and Government is a different story. I agree to some extend the ACLU is going WAY to far, but for instance (my opinion and i realy hate to even bring it up) the issue of Under God in the Pledge, why can't we all agree that it was NOT written that way, and go back to the original version used the majority of the time, but the majority of this country ,by the majority of christains before it was changed? don't argue about why it was put in or why you want it out, just go back to its original verses and no harm no fowl and its NOT about christianity and will NOT effect how ANY of us in the US today or tomorrow will live our lives. School prayer, i'm fine with a set aside TIME in the day (or times if folks are Muslim) that they can individualy pray or think or sit and spin, just don't force anyone to pray at that time.



I guess I go back to the problems in our society today are NOT in my opinion because God/Jesus/Religion is or is NOT less prevelant in society. SOO much has changed in the last 30 years in our lives (technology, transportation...) that it is ALL part of the cause of change, and the increase in drug use (meth), teen pregnancies, drop outs, crime... is NOT because we lost "God" from our governement school or courts, its because of PEOPLE NOT taking personal responsibility for their actions - PERIOD. And that is taught at HOME first !
 
Let's all please remember, that freedom of speech does come with certain limits. The Federal Goverment has some limits; local goverments have some limits; when I was growing up my Daddy certainly had some limits; and certainly my employer has some limits. When there are children in the car/vicinty, I apply certain limits.



After that, you are pretty much free to say whatever you want to say - within those limits of course! :):D:rolleyes:;):blink:



Tex
 
Wow, I can't believe I read this whole thing.:eek:



First of all I want to say that I think this whole "not saying Merry Christmas thing is a little overblown. A little like flag burning... a few years ago everybody got all worked up over flag burning so much that you would have thought that flags were being burned on every street corner. As far as I know a couple of nut cases burned a flag (which in a free society they have a right to do just as you have a right to kick their ass for doing it) and then the whole thing died away...except to make talking points for politicians running for office to stand on a soapbox and boast that they voted to ban flag burning.



I get around town pretty good and I gotta say, I have seen no sign what so ever of any subversive liberal group trying to to eliminate Christmas. The phrase,Happy Holidays or Season Greetings, have been around for years and I have always considered them to mean have a happy and prosperous Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year. I have never taken offense at that, and nor do I now.



I, like Rich D, do not consider myself a Christian or a Jew (even though my great-grandmother was) or a Muslim, Shinto, or any other philosophical team-member. I believe in treating other people with respect even if they don't agree with me or they look differant or they choose to live their life in a manner that I don't agree with. As long as they don't try to harm me, my family or my country I will let them live their life as they choose. And, even though I don't consider myself a Christian I will continue to celebrate the birth of the most influential man to ever walk the earth and remember His teachings of peace and forgivness and humility and love of fellow man. Something that many people who do call themselves Christians have no clue of.



I'm suprised that someone hasn't mentioned the word Xmas in this discussion. This has always been one of my pet peeves, something my mother instilled in me at an early age to not eliminate the name of the person we are celebrating the life of.



Oh by the way, just to set the record straight, many of the "Founding Fathers" such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and John Adams, were Deists, not Christians. Deists beleive in a more universial God and are very skeptical of any religion who claims to know all the truth. Check it out.





Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Warmest Season Greetings and Peace to all.



Harpo


http://www.deism.org/frames.htm
 
To me the whole shebang boils down to a basic lack of respect for others and their beliefs.



If Trep wished me a happy Hannukah, I would be thankful that he did and wish him a happy Hannukah in return.



If KB wished me a merry Christmas and God bless you, I would be thankful that he did and wish him a merry Christmas and God bless you in return.



If Rich D wished me a happy Holidays, I would be thankful that he did and offer him a happy Holidays in return.





I'm not saying whether any or all of their beliefs agree with mine, but I have respect for them and theirs. It sure doesn't offend me, and only takes a few seconds to return the favor.





Happy Holidays



Merry Christmas



Happy Hannukah



To You ALL :):):):):)



Steve
 
Now Steve the REAL question is... Is the Tracker put up for the winter??LOL!!



Picked my boat up from the shop for the winter tune up and hit 54 on the lake on the way home!! it was COLD about 40 air temp water about 45 degrees, BRRR!!!
 
Trep,

Yeah it's put away. We've only been in the teens the last few days,but are calling for a balmy 35 this weekend.

Everything is covered in snow and more still falling, good for the hunters, but it really makes for some hairy moments at work.LOL



Oh well, only 3 or 4 more months till I can go fishing again.



Happy Hannukah to you and your family.

Just never mention the eight days to my kids or they'll want to convert.:D



Steve
 
Scott, you are the perfect example of why I am not a Christian.



At one time in history the church proclaimed the earth was flat and anybody who disagreed was a heretic and should be burned at the stake....then they found out they were mistaken. But then they all said the sun and all the planets revolved around the earth and if you didn't believe that you were a godless piece of crap and should be imprisioned for the rest of your worthless life....then they backed away from that idea too. So many other examples of how the church manipulates science to fit their purpose that I won't even list them. Yes, there is a lot of credible info out there but the creationists choose to ignore it in order to promote their own beliefs. What would be wrong with the philosophy that God used the natural forces of gravity, volcanism, erosion, unimaginable amounts of time and natural selection as His tools to create the earth?



Harpo
 
Right Wrong or other wise, I want to Thank Rich Stern again for this site and the Members here. This post is xx long and takes about an hour to read. There is NO better group anywhere. This being a very convoluted subject this has been a very tame post to a very important message. Read what you want, beleave what you will and be thankfull you can here.

BF

P.S Wonder how this would have went at bfhp???

God Bless
 
I want to go back to my days in boot camp our DI said there are no atheist in the Marine Corps so every one had to pick a service to go to because in a fox hole with incoming every body prays to some God



JD
 
Scott,



Good information. I would say from what you said that we're in the same boat about creationism. We also both have 88 V17's so I guess we really are in the same boat. I believe Jesus truly is the reason for the season, and if that offends someone then they don't have to celebrate Christmas.



I don't celebrate Halloween, because I don't believe in it. My kid doesn't trick or treat or do anything associated with it. Our church had a penny carnival during Halloween and I didn't even let him attend that. I believe that if you don't believe in something then don't celebrate it. Don't rename it, or try and turn it into something different, just go on like it doesn't exist for you. I feel bombarded with Halloween stuff around the end of October but I just ignore it and go on.



Merry Christmas Everyone

 
Done with it all, though the deist (deliberate lower case spelling) argument is a little silly at best as it relates to some of our founding father's.
 
Bill, you can beleive what you want but I've know of this for years. Thomas Paine was the principal believer in the Deist movement. Thomas Jefferson was a follower of Paine's which is why so much of Paine's ideas are written into the Declaration of Independence. Adam's was a Unitarian which today is the Unitarian Universalist Church. Many Deist's today are members of the UU.





http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism



http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/



http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html





This one is pretty good... it argues both side of the story

http://watkins.gospelcom.net/foundingfathers.htm



and this one argues that they were not atheist...but Deists are not atheist. A Deist is "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason." Deists reject the Judeo-Christian accounts of God as well as the Bible. They do believe that God is eternal and good, but flatly reject having a relationship with Him through Christ.



http://members.aol.com/TestOath/deism.htm





Hope this helps.

Harpo
 
Harpo.. Thanks, I already know I can believe what I want. I'm sorry and I know it's a copout but I'm too old and too tired to argue these points. And no, it won't help.
 
Sooner,

I am serious about doing the math. It doesn't work. I am not taking this from any religous view . Math is Math

Math does not and Can not lie

2 +2 = 4 alway will, alway has



I am not saying become a christianand believe creationism .

Just take a closer look at evolution.

Just because you repeat the same theorys over and over do not make them true.



I guess when you refer to them and they you are talking about "religous" leaders

Power corrupts.

I am not talking about the "church".

I am talking about God Himself man. My faith and beleif system is based on a relationship with Jesus Christ not my involement in a Church. You can not look at man, he will let you down everytime.

For me God put us here, Loves us and cares for us.

When I look around atthe complexity of living things and the way God works in My life at times, I really have a hard time excepting that everything is chance and random and just came about from 1 lonely cell billions of years ago. Never happened anywhere else.

(another math issue) the Earth is in the perfect location (distance) from the sun to sustain life. Any closer or farther Life as we know would not exist.

I know you don't want to here this but a serious study of the Bible (not taking bits and pieces from heresay) will show that there is a ultimate plan that is being fulfilled.

It is Gods Playbook, if you will.

Thanks for the time.





On the Whole, "if God had enough time" argument.

If God is God why does he need all that time.

Don't forget to work the population map backwards from 5 billion to 2 people.

You still get a young earth.



 
Scott,



Not sure where you are going with the math thing. This is what I know: Science has dated the earth at roughly 4.5 billion years old. At the very least, the oldest known rock is about 3.8 billion years old. The oldest fossil, a fish I think, dates back to 560 million years. The oldest fossil for Homo Sapiens is around 200,000 years old. I think Creationists date the earth at about 10,000 years old.



We will just have to agree to disagree on this.



Rich D

 
Stupid me (CJL) is gonna jump in on this thread.



Some points I wanted to opine on.



1) I have heard the phrase lately on this board, "exercise your right to leave this country, or go elsewhere as DanJ said in this post. I also seen it in other posts. Remember the old saying, "you can't have your cake and eat it!". Those statements or sentiment are a complete contradiction and a black eye for what this country stands for, IMHO. You undermine the whole idea and premise of our country by saying things like this.



2) Evolution: Not the Darwin debate, but the America debate, seems a great deal of people can't seem to evovle and change with the times. This is one peice of history that repeats itself over and over again in America.



3) Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays - To me, I don't care, I don't want to force my relegion on anyone, I strongly beleive that Happy Holidays evolved from the fact that the second largest faith in the country (Judism) is close in timeframes to the Birth of Christ,therefore Happy Holidays was and is the appropriate phrase when expressing to someone whom you may not know there faith.



4) Religion should be left out of schools and no one should EVER go to Catholic School!! Period IMHO. I went to Catholic School and was exposed to more violence in my school than in the inner-city I grew up in. They are in fact a discrace and contradiction to any Christian based faith. I was also taught that Roman-Catholics are the only true Christians. There you have it. Nuns and Preists expressed more violence than any other group of people I have met in my life.



5) Rich D does not have to work on any Holy day of obligation just because he does not practice a religion, he has a right to enjoy the day with freinds and family.



6) The phrase "politicaly correct" is becoming in my opinion another way for people to complain about how our society is evolving away from what they want or what they are used to. I don't feel that politically correct has impacted me either way.



7) I have not noticed the phrase Happy Holidays as bothering me, never put to much thought in it.



8) Everybody should read Dante's inferno, perhaps Rich D will then realize that he just may go to heaven after all, just for being a good human being. Please read it, Pagans (non-christians don't get punished as bad as you think).



9) I love the idea of the phrase "In God we Trust" I am happy to be a Roman-Catholic (non-practicing) American. But more importantly, Christ is not important to me to be on a Dollar Bill, or prayers or in a court room, Christ needs to be within you, that's where it counts.



10) Let's steer away from a Religious based "Secular" nation, as well as a second "inquisition".



Merry Christmas to all my fellow Christians

Happy Holidays to all my other friends :)



CJL

 
I also think it speaks very highly of all the members of this board that we can have a discussion like this without it evolving into feuds.



We could always start another on one of man's oldest questions: What was it that Mama Pajama saw?



Rich D
 
Trepper - I'd love to take you out for a spin in the Targa, but I haven't cranked the big motor to fish in several weeks. The stripers and some big spots have been crushing bait for the past month or so, right behind the house! It's literally been a drop the TM and commence with the catching. Next time we hook up, you're welcome to "skin 'er back". (LOL!) With you alone, she might even touch 60 in the cold air. :D



I agree with your follow-up response wholeheartedly. We both know I'm no "bible-thumper", but I do have a fundamental belief system that I just get tired of seeing attacked from every possible angle, especially by the frivolous lawsuits brought by the ACLU as well as many other overzealous liberals in the overwhelming minority of the argument. I'm not trying to "stir anybody's pot", just "calling 'em as I see 'em."



Shalom Malechem!
 
Scott, let me address some of your points:



You have a valid point to some degree the only problem is that when it comes to all other religions except christianity we are told to be tolerant.



That is your perception. The tolerance message is generally aimed at anyone not currently being oppressed.



When it comes to christianity we are bashed criticized and misrepresented. Islams muslims and others who wish to destroy the ubited stated are tolerated so we can be called culturally diverse.



Welcome to the club. If you were Jewish, you'd be used to hearing that Jews control corporate America, politics, etc. A holdover from some of the rhetoric that National Socialism made popular in the 1930s.



Rich remember Atheism is also a religion.



Atheism is not a religion. Religion is a set of beliefs based on spiritual teachings or concepts. Atheism is disbelief in the existence of one or more supernatural, all-powerful entities. Atheists do not share a set of spiritual concepts.



Your alternative is evolution (it is a religion to those who believe it. not as scientifically based as you think))



Evolution is entirely scientifically based. Science is observation, experimentation, debate, and the theories that result. You misunderstand the concept of scientific theory. A scientific theory is the one that is accepted as most likely to be true, and treated as true, until another theory with better scientific support (again, via observation, experimentation, debate) displaces it.



Do your home work on Creationsim. Mathematically is makes a whole lot more sense. Work your math backwards from todays population numbers, Middle ages, Roman times etc. You end up with a very young earth.



That statement ignores so many concepts of geology, anthropology, biology, zoology geography, and social sciences that I can't even begin to contemplate how much I could write to disprove it as utterly false.



If you understand the complexity of say your eyeball and the supporting components. It is mathematically impossible to randomly come up with the correct combination of parts (amino acids, neurons etc.) in the correct order to make the eye work. Even the evolutionist Billions and Billions doesnt work. Remember that is just one system of one species.



Simple example:

you have 112 bones in your body.

to get every combination of bones you must multiply 112 x 112 112 times

assume you can make a new combination of bones every second.

your answer to 112 to the 112th power divided out to determine the number of years needed to cycle through all the combinations exceeds evolutionary "scientists" age of Earth years.

The math just doen't work. Thats not from a religous point of view Math is Math you can't change that.



Your example is fundamentally flawed. You start with a premise that evolution is random, when in fact it is not. Random means entirely unpredictable. Individual acts of survival may in fact be somewhat random, but as a whole, evolution is a direct and somewhat predictable reaction to environmental variables.



If a species of deer with gray and white colored members lives in an ecology dominated by neutral colors that tend to mask the gray members from predators, would you be surprised that eventually, the white deer will disappear while the gray flourish? Does that seem random to you? If you can observe such a phenomena, predict the outcome, measure/record it, it becomes very valid scientific theory. Random it is not.



Believe what you want about where you came from, But first take a Honest look at both sides from a none religous point of view.

How did the theory of evolution evolve.



A guy named Darwin found an island chain that contained small, self-contained, easily observed ex
 
I was waiting for our illustrious leader to chime in!



and I agree 100% with Rich D - Great discussion, debate and opinions in an adult manner.

 
Just wait a few days Mike, you'll evolve into it!!! :lol:
 
This stuff is great.

At least we agree in a couple points.

In the pure sense Atheism is a religion.

religion - principle or system of beliefs with ardor and faith.

Atheism ia a Doctrine of Disbelief.



Atheism and My faith in God are belief systems.

Catholism, paganism, hinduism are religions based on a particular belief system.



Evolution is entirely scientifically based. Science is observation, experimentation, debate, and the theories that result.

This is where many have been misled. You are right about proving theory. But many evolutionary theories which are taught as proven have many gaps in the approval process many key elements left out or skipped over.

There are many examples a evoltionary spcies evolving into a modern species.

aniaml A came from Animal C. There are many assumptions made and evensteps in the evolutionary process that are totally left out and unexplained.



Your right theory is theory until proven otherwise.

Evolution is still an unproven theory in many, many aspects. Yet it is taught as fact in educational institutions.

That you can not argue with.

Since it is a theory / Then Creationsm should also be tauht as a theory side by side as two opposing theories. I do not see that happening in many places.



I used math as one aspect intentionally ignoring the other scientific areas you mentioned.

Math is very pure and straight forward.



I take it from your statement that Evolution is not random that you do believe in intelligent design. I think you agree with me here..?.?

You can not call Man from ape from frog from fish Predicatable can You????

Our earth is not random in any area. The creator has planned it this way.



Small examples of evolutionary behavior can be observed in nature within a short period of time, which strongly supports the theory

Very small very Isolated it is hard take those examples and apply it to ALL living things which you must do to accept evolution.



Evolution starts out with random gases generating a Universe. (with out any external force ie. energy , it just expolode). Where the gases came from I am not sure. (hint - God)

That is pretty random. Then we get water, living cells, and DNA. (gases do not have DNA), I guess this just happened also. The chemical make up of the gases could have formed into DNA (very very complex issue here), cell, fish, frog, monkey, then me. I wonder what will come after man.

Ever wonder why we do not see any 1/2 fish/frogs or 1/2 ape/men.



A Guy named Darwin: Some say he denounced evolution on his death bed , really doesn't matter. His beliefs are still with us.

His theory proved animals can adapt but not recreate themselves into another species From single cell >>>>>>>>>>>to man.

Remeber we still do not have cross species breeding or 1/2 species.



Give an example of evolutionary behavior.

Don't care what it is.

The take that small change what ever it is and how long it takes.

Look at the world around you an do the MATH. How much time do you need to get from a gas to where we are now. Really the numbers will astound you.

Evolution dosen't give enough time.



Faith -from webster def 3. something that is believed especially with strong conviction.



When you truley examine the "theory" of Evoluton it origins and the fact that it is mostly theory. it takes a lot of faith to belive it.



You have fallen into the trap that evolution theory is fact.

I can see and feel gravity and its effects.

I see no real evidence of evolution in the world today especially in the living organisms.

I am not kidding about half ape half man. If we were really still evolving wouldn't we see one. I know the evolutionist would have it/him on CNN.

We need to really dig deeper into the evolutionary
 
Tin SUCKS.....GLASS RULES!!!!!!!!



" 'dem bassus luv sparkles" (c)
 
Stern - You're my hero!! Always the level-headed voice of reason. I'm a lucky fella to know you!
 
Now Neeley 4 months ago those would have been FIGHTING words, but i gotta admit - " 'dem bassus luv sparkles" (c)
 
Evolution as taught in schools... escpecially at the level of "children" is not about "origin of life"... it is not being taught as a conclusion for how animal got from "a" to "b"... it is being taught about the process, and is part of the overall 'Science" of observation, test, and evaluation.



You cannot have those disciplines if everything (that you dont completely understand) is chalked up to a "super natural being of unknown power just did it".



I would much rather have my children tuaght to be critical thinkers (question EVERYTHING) than to have them brought up and taught as "Blind followers".



This is where the arguments of people (similar to slsail) fall on ignorance... they get emotional without even realizing the implications, or following thru on what the CURRICULUM is actually attempting to advance, instead they resort to half truths.



I could point out a large number of flaws in the <insert holy book of choice here> that are much more astounding (especially considering the purported "source" of the material) than any 'hole" that currently exists in the "theory" or evolution.



Teaching 'Intelligent Design" is not a study... it is a cop out on the theory, becuase the answer becomes circular... there is no proof available, when the only answer is "some unseen being or force did it". To put it another way, I see many of the "Bibles" explanations (or THEORYS if you will) (creation story, rainbow, whathaveya) as early man's attempt to explain the universe around him, and these stories made sense when those things were not fully understood.



Some things about life and our world will never be fully understood, and that does not mean that we have to chalk it all up to the "unseen being in the sky". The scientific process allows for these things to come closer to explanation.



Also scientists and researchers are honest in the fact that their "Theorys" are only valid until proven wrong and INVITE that proof, while the "holy men" demand that thier theorys CANNOT be proven wrong, and denounce any evidence or proof of the oppposite.







 
Scott,



You stated

"Since it is a theory / Then Creationsm should also be tauht as a theory side by side as two opposing theories. I do not see that happening in many places."



Yes Evolution is a theory based upon science. Creationism isn't based upon science, it is based upon faith. Faith, as discussed, is a belief, not a theory. You can't teach them side by side, because one is based upon research, the other based upon belief.





"I used math as one aspect intentionally ignoring the other scientific areas you mentioned. Math is very pure and straight forward. "



You didn't really use math. You proposed a theory about how long it would take to create our skeleton by running through every combination. As Rich stated, that is not the evolutionist theory.



"Work your math backwards from todays population numbers, Middle ages, Roman times etc. You end up with a very young earth."



I honestly would love to see the math on this one. Does it also assume that Man was created the same time the planet was created? There is more scientific evidence that shows us otherwise than I could list!



"I see no real evidence of evolution in the world today especially in the living organisms. "



One example that quickly pops to mind are the species of fish that are able to survive out of water i.e. the lung fishes of South America and South Africa. Fish that have adapted to gulping air to survive droughts and move from water source to water source.



Rich D

 
This stuff is great.

At least we agree in a couple points.

In the pure sense Atheism is a religion. religion - principle or system of beliefs with ardor and faith. Atheism ia a Doctrine of Disbelief.



No. A person can be an atheist, i.e., absence of belief in devine entities, without ascribing to any codified set of spiritual or systematic beliefs. You are characterizing atheists who are doctrinally opposed to your view and grouping them together. That's kind of like saying Christians, Jews and Muslims are the same religion because they all believe in one supreme diety. And most Christians, Jews or Muslims would deny they are part of one religion because they adhere to specific sets of spiritual beliefs that are different from one another. Atheists don't have a set of codified rules that can be described as a religion.



This is where many have been misled. You are right about proving theory. But many evolutionary theories which are taught as proven have many gaps in the approval process many key elements left out or skipped over.

There are many examples a evoltionary spcies evolving into a modern species.

aniaml A came from Animal C. There are many assumptions made and evensteps in the evolutionary process that are totally left out and unexplained.



For a variety of reasons, we have very little recorded history of the dark ages in Europe. Isaac Newton wouldn't be along for another few hundred years. We have many recorded accounts of gravity's presence before the dark ages. You can observe the effect of gravity today. Do you have any reason to suspect that gravity didn't exist during the dark ages in Europe simply because human beings did a poor job of observing and recording it during that period of time?



The scientific concept is that if a theory holds true for a given set of circumstances, in the absence of contrary evidence, it holds true for all instances of similar circumstances, even if those other instances remain unobserved and unrecorded.



Until someone proves, through scientific method, that some period of human or animal evolution did not obey the theory of evolution, it is accepted as true among scientists.



Evolution is still an unproven theory



You still don't quite get how science defines theory. The proof already offered is considered valid and encompassing until a more obersvable, more measurable, more logically sound theory replaces it. Evolution is the truth according to scientific method. You can choose to call it false based on your belief system. That is fine. But don't call it unproven theory, because that's a misuse of the terms and a misreprentation of scientific principles.



I used math as one aspect intentionally ignoring the other scientific areas you mentioned. Math is very pure and straight forward.



I saw nothing in your reference to Math that would alter any reasonable perspective on the matter at hand. Referring to Math and using Math to prove something are a bit different.



Evolution starts out with random gases generating a Universe. (with out any external force ie. energy , it just expolode). Where the gases came from I am not sure. (hint - God)

That is pretty random. Then we get water, living cells, and DNA. (gases do not have DNA), I guess this just happened also. The chemical make up of the gases could have formed into DNA (very very complex issue here), cell, fish, frog, monkey, then me. I wonder what will come after man.

Ever wonder why we do not see any 1/2 fish/frogs or 1/2 ape/men.



I suggest that unknown and/or unobserved events are likely to obey scientific theory. You suggest they are acts of the Judeo-Christian God. The early Greeks and Egyptians had their points of view, too, and a monotheistic God was not part of the explanation. Many other Pagan societies have their own<
 
Something to ponder along this same thread: What caused "the Big Bang" in The Big Bang theory regarding the creation of the universe? I don't know, as well as the rest of mankind from what I gather. That is where my "leap of faith" begins, and ends to some degree. There is something greater than myself and humanity as a whole which propelled all of this, including the topic at hand. Just a thought.



I'd also like to thank everybody involved for having such a combustive topic discussed with the incredible decorum all have shown.



Happy Kwanza! :)
 
Hey Dan - " the incredible decorum all have shown"



Well... Glass rules!!!
 
Dan J,



I agree with what your saying, (I think) LOL. Something had to create the "Big Bang" perhaps that's where my leap of faith would end as well. After that it I would think things kinda happened on their own. Let's not forget the Dinasours LOL, or where they put here to turn into oil for us to fight over a later date? Just a thought.



CJL
 
Dan, I agree. It's a great mystery and wonderful to be able to debate it openly with the good people here.
 
Theory. Fact. Scientific formulation. Hypothesis. Creationism. . . . . . my head hurts trying to figure it all out.



We live on a planet that is populated by many, many things. One of which is the 'human experience', which includes us.



I don't know we are here because of evolution by itself, or as a result of creationism, followed by evolution. But we know for a certainty, that we have evolved over the centuries.



Having said all that, much like others have expressed here:



Happy Holidays.

Merry Christmas.

Happy Chanukkah (and yes, Trep has explained it is spelled about 14 different ways!).



Tex



 
Fair enough, slsails...



but riddle me this... If all things, based upon "complexity" had to have a more "intelligent designer"... who (or what) designed or created the designer?



Don't you see the cop out with that line of thinking?



Again, "Evolution Science" doesn't even ATTEMPT to deal with the "origins", it only deals with the process by which things EVOLVE... you keep going back to the "Creation" or "Intelligent Design" idea that something "else" must have done it...



well, if "something else" done it, show me that "something else"... otherwise your just hedging your bet and you've already quit trying to explore the idea.



And this exact debate is exactly why that "Inteligent Design" or "Creationism" or "Bible Study" does not belong in Publc Schools... there are way too many "theories" without evidence.



And again, Your believing that there must have been "something else" does not make it so... I can believe all I want in purple polkadotted pink unicorns that swim with the dolphins and puke ice cream... but if I can't provide evidence for it beyond that belief, it is only that... my belief.



And that is not meant to be a slam on your belief... it's simply stating a fact.



Science puts hard evidence behind it's beliefs/theorys.



Where's the hard evidence behind "Intelligent Design" beyond your "belief" that it had to be?
 
If Atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color.;)



Actually, the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Atheism is a religion for legal purposes in a case concerning the right of Wisconsin prison inmates to form an atheist discussion group. The prison denied the group the right to meet, the inmates sued, and the appeals court ruled in their favor, stating that a religion does not require a belief in a deity.



Scott, you still are not understanding the defination of the word theory. Among scientists, a theory is generally accepted as fact...a hypothesis, on the other hand is not accepted theory and open to furthur research. It is derived from the Greek word Theorein which means "to look at". The word theory has been mis-interpered by the Creationist to fit their need to explain the "God created the Heavens and Earth in seven days" passage in the Bible.



Many everyday facts of life are consided as theory, such as electrical theory. We cannot actually see the flow of electrons through the copper wire but we accept as fact that they are there. Science explains it today, but 1000 years ago magnetism was thought of as work of the devil. If we're going to teach science based on faith then we need to start teaching the Stork Theory in medical schools.



Another thing.... I have difficulty with your numerology explaination of the worlds population. Are you considering the various plagues throughout history that have wiped out millions of people at differant times. How about long periods of war where hundreds of thousands died with in a few years. I would love to see how you plug those variables into your equation. You may also want to revise your equation regarding how many bones in the human body....I regret to inform you that there are 206 in an adult, infants have 350. Oppppps





Harpo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
 
hey Rich...sorry dude but if we ever get to fish together i will still pray to God i catch the biggest fish...and since i am a lousy fisherman...if i catch it that will prove the existance of God.



RW:lol:
 
Home Brew RULES!!!



OH and Neeley - Get a boat!!! :lol:
 
Unidentified Floating Object? see a boat you could not identify?? LOL
 
My brain hurts from reading this post.............:huh: So what is the one true BEEF JERKY out there ?:huh:



Mark
 
Dumb Monkeys, smart humans!!! - why pay when its free on the internet!!! BBWWAAAAAAA
 
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